Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby altius » Wed Jun 04, 2014 8:05 pm

You both continue to ignore the fact that Bubka jumped much higher than 6.16 on many occasions - but for commercial reasons the bar wasn't at that height - take a look at the photo I use here! Clearing a 6.01 bar by nearly 40 cm! The reason is simple, Bubka was out there on his own - he had no one to really challenge him -to force him to jump the heights he could have cleared - and unlike Lavellenie he had no target to go for after he went over 6.05. I know this will not stop the flow of bulls*** - nor will it produce evidence of your ability to translate your ideas into practice with your athletes - what was it Will - 15th and 16th in your major competition this year? Did they jump like Lavellenie????
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:14 pm

Will:
Well, I have put it forth. They swing lower and slower and by this present a better relation to gravity in time for added effect on the pole shortening moment. It thus adds to the effect in getting on longer and stiffer poles.


This is an area were we have some differences. Although I am open to the thought ,the vaulter still in the end most find a way to beat the final uncoiling of the pole and position himself on top, in time to receive it. So many vaulters fail in this regard at all levels. I have never promoted or thought of a slow swing as a way to achieve it or as a way to add more energy to the swing. Lavellenie covers the pole well and in time. I believe it is the way he loads it and How he swings on it, not that he swings slow. With that being said I do see him Hanging his drive leg waiting for the swing leg to catch up and while on top it appears to me he is so quickly in position in his ball that he actually does have to pause a bit waiting for the pole to be in the right position before his extension.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:47 pm

I had a while back mentioned that I believe the flexible pole can not be fully equated to an "infinite series of stiff poles" because of how it bends and rotates much more and that this certainly effected the Physics of the vault. Altius claimed it did not. I challeged him that in fact it did by at least 2 very important reason and challenged him to tell me why. Months later with no reply I made this post.


Me:
From the moment the foot leaves the ground the flexible pole (for a right handed vaulter) immediately begins leaning to the left and bends to the left. This creates a larger window to swing through that the stiff pole did not nearly offer (Earlier stiff pole vaulters had to learn more how to swing around the pole). This left bend is sever but in Lavellenies case it is even more sever earlier on. This has a major effect on the physics of the vaulters swing path. As it is giving way left it causes the vaulters swing path to be oriented in that direction rather then perpendicular. To compensate for this, the wise vaulter steers their swing path to the right and up or toward the top hand. This is necessary in order to create a perpendicular swing. Altius, I have just answered for you why and how the sideways pole bend effects the Physics of the vault. Because Lavellenies pole bend is more sever and earlier on and effect his swing path greater. He has to compensate more by orientating his swing path even more so to the right then Bubka's to the point his take off foot swings well mo,re past the right side of the pole then Bubka's and I believe it is possible this counter side swing achieves better counter thrust bend to the pole at the top of his swing as well?


IS THIS LAST QUESTION WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION?

I believe The Slow-Mo footage of Lavellenies WR vault confirmed what I had speculated earlier, that in his case it was more sever and earlier and had even more of a pronounced Physical effect on Lavellenies swing. Look below and see the dramatic effect the bending and rotating pole has on Lavellenies swing! Can you imagine how far off of vertical his swing path would be if he did not compensate by steering his hips to the right?

This dramatic effect on Lavellenies swing begins at frame 3:19. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I

Is it possible this counter side swing achieves better counter thrust bend to the pole at the top of his swing as well?
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:07 am

PVDaddy wrote: From the moment the foot leaves the ground the flexible pole (for a right handed vaulter) immediately begins leaning to the left and bends to the left. ... This has a major effect on the physics of the vaulters swing path. As it is giving way left it causes the vaulters swing path to be oriented in that direction rather then perpendicular. To compensate for this, the wise vaulter steers their swing path to the right and up or toward the top hand. This is necessary in order to create a perpendicular swing. ...

Apparently deduced from convoluted reverse engiineering of Lavellinie and Bubka vids, this is pure speculation, and does NOT follow the Laws of Physics.

Astute vaulters and coaches will appreciate that this speculation is nuts.

The energy generated from the runup does NOT change direction (nor should it) once the vaulter leaves the ground! Besides the obvious advantages of a bendable pole, the bend provides a serendipity by allowing a clear path for the vaulter to swing DIRECTLY FORWARDS, without fear of colliding with the pole.

But to fully appreciate this, the astute coach (or biomechanist) should feel this phenomenon for himself, on a bending pole.

This has a major effect on the physics of the vaulters swing path.

I think not!

Others can prove or disprove this by physics and math, but I know this to be true by my first hand experience. With my technique, I did NOT apply any pressure with my bottom arm - all the pressure (and energy) applied to the pole was through my top hand. My bottom arm did not come into play until my upswing, inversion, and extension.

So if you accept this as fact, then it is awfully difficult to argue that I somehow compensated for the pole curving to my right (I'm a lefty) via my top hand! That's NOT what happens!

Could it be that someone is grasping at straws? :confused:

Kirk
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby willrieffer » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:55 am

altius wrote:You both continue to ignore the fact that Bubka jumped much higher than 6.16 on many occasions - but for commercial reasons the bar wasn't at that height - take a look at the photo I use here! Clearing a 6.01 bar by nearly 40 cm! The reason is simple, Bubka was out there on his own - he had no one to really challenge him -to force him to jump the heights he could have cleared - and unlike Lavellenie he had no target to go for after he went over 6.05. I know this will not stop the flow of bulls*** - nor will it produce evidence of your ability to translate your ideas into practice with your athletes - what was it Will - 15th and 16th in your major competition this year? Did they jump like Lavellenie????


I gave Bubka 6.4 m in agreement with you and apparently Japanese video analysis, which I was very happy to see as backup to my own extrapolation of his noted meet height clearances...

As to my vaulters. As I've said, you said you needed a year to formulate a vaulter. I had 3 months with bad weather and injuries. Still, I've produced in 3 years two milespilt AG elites with very limited resources. I expect to have 4-6 state qualifiers next year and that both of the guys you are busting here will be 14' milesplit elites.

But whatever, maybe since you can't even read what's written anymore, you need to retire.....

Will

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby altius » Thu Jun 05, 2014 7:57 am

"As to my vaulters. As I've said, you said you needed a year to formulate a vaulter. WHEN DID I SYA THAT -DOES THIS MEAND THAT YOU HAVE READ BTB2??? I had 3 months with bad weather and injuries. Still, I've produced in 3 years two milespilt AG elites - NOT SURE WHAT THAT MEANS - WOULD APPRECIATE AN EXPLANATION OF WHAT A MILESPLIT AG ELITE IS - with very limited resources. I expect to have 4-6 state qualifiers next year and that both of the guys you are busting here will be 14' mile split elites". I AM NOT BUSTING ANYONE - I DONT EVEN KNOW THEIR NAMES.

BUT IF YOU ARE GOING TO POSE AS AN ELITE COACH - INDEED AS ONE WHO IS PROPOSING TO REVOLUTIONISE THINKING IN THIS EVENT, YOU SHOULD BE PREPARED TO SHOW US HOW YOUR IDEAS ACTUALLY HELP VAULTERS TO IMPROVE. SHOW ME SOME FILM OF THEM AND I WILL TELL YOU IF THEY HAVE ANY CHANCE OF BECOMING 14' VAULTERS - OR IS THAT ANOTHER ONE OF YOUR DREAMS. INCIDENTALLY THE LAST OF MY ATHLETES WHO IS LISTED IN BTB2 JUMPED 4.45M /14'9" - AND HE WAS LEGALLY BLIND - SO DONT CARRY ON ABOUT 'GONNA BE 14' VAULTERS'.

"But whatever, maybe since you can't even read what's written anymore, you need to retire...."

You are right -I stopped reading your stuff a long while ago - you are just on an ego trip. Re retiring - happy to retire from this rubbish, where pvstudent persists in 'casting pearls before swine', but I will continue to actually coach athletes. In fact I notice that neither you nor pvdaddy have bothered to check out one of my athletes - a 12 year old girl - film of whom I have put up in the beginners section. I am certain she is already technically more competent than any of your athletes and will improve far more rapidly than they do - simply because she is beginning - and beginning is the operative word here -to master the Petrov/Bubka model of vaulting. :P
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:00 am

Kirk, I guess it just effect everyone elses swing path then not certain Canadians? :o



From the moment the foot leaves the ground the flexible pole (for a right handed vaulter) immediately begins leaning to the left and bends to the left. This creates a larger window to swing through that the stiff pole did not nearly offer (Earlier stiff pole vaulters had to learn more how to swing around the pole). This left bend is sever but in Lavellenies case it is even more sever earlier on. This has a major effect on the physics of the vaulters swing path. As it is giving way left it causes the vaulters swing path to be oriented in that direction rather then perpendicular. To compensate for this, the wise vaulter steers their swing path to the right and up or toward the top hand. This is necessary in order to create a perpendicular swing. Altius, I have just answered for you why and how the sideways pole bend effects the Physics of the vault. Because Lavellenies pole bend is more sever and earlier on and effect his swing path greater. He has to compensate more by orientating his swing path even more so to the right then Bubka's to the point his take off foot swings well mo,re past the right side of the pole then Bubka's and I believe it is possible this counter side swing achieves better counter thrust bend to the pole at the top of his swing as well?



IS THIS LAST QUESTION WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION?

I believe The Slow-Mo footage of Lavellenies WR vault confirmed what I had speculated earlier, that in his case it was more sever and earlier and had even more of a pronounced Physical effect on Lavellenies swing. Look below and see the dramatic effect the bending and rotating pole has on Lavellenies swing! Can you imagine how far off of vertical his swing path would be if he did not compensate by steering his hips to the right?

This dramatic effect on Lavellenies swing begins at frame 3:19. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I I also realise this ma be difficult for you to except because an highly "Credentialed" person did not say before here on PVP. Of course I have said many expounded on many new concepts such as why re-extension of the plant after penetration Lower COG and speeds up the swing, Greater emphasis on tap, benefits inverting beyond vertical etc you did not except until later?

Is it possible this counter side swing achieves better counter thrust bend to the pole at the top of his swing as well?
e:
From the moment the foot leaves the ground the flexible pole (for a right handed vaulter) immediately begins leaning to the left and bends to the left. This creates a larger window to swing through that the stiff pole did not nearly offer (Earlier stiff pole vaulters had to learn more how to swing around the pole). This left bend is sever but in Lavellenies case it is even more sever earlier on. This has a major effect on the physics of the vaulters swing path. As it is giving way left it causes the vaulters swing path to be oriented in that direction rather then perpendicular. To compensate for this, the wise vaulter steers their swing path to the right and up or toward the top hand. This is necessary in order to create a perpendicular swing. Altius, I have just answered for you why and how the sideways pole bend effects the Physics of the vault. Because Lavellenies pole bend is more sever and earlier on and effect his swing path greater. He has to compensate more by orientating his swing path even more so to the right then Bubka's to the point his take off foot swings well mo,re past the right side of the pole then Bubka's and I believe it is possible this counter side swing achieves better counter thrust bend to the pole at the top of his swing as well?


IS THIS LAST QUESTION WORTHY OF CONSIDERATION?

I believe The Slow-Mo footage of Lavellenies WR vault confirmed what I had speculated earlier, that in his case it was more sever and earlier and had even more of a pronounced Physical effect on Lavellenies swing. Look below and see the dramatic effect the bending and rotating pole has on Lavellenies swing! Can you imagine how far off of vertical his swing path would be if he did not compensate by steering his hips to the right?

This dramatic effect on Lavellenies swing begins at frame 3:19. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I

Is it possible this counter side swing achieves better counter thrust bend to the pole at the top of his swing as well?
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Decamouse » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:51 pm

Counter side swing -- counter thrust bend -- well I guess you did come up with some new terms -- free world -- freedom of speech -- got to just enjoy the discussion
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:41 pm

At the risk of throwing more pearls to more swine ...
PVDaddy wrote: Can you imagine how far off of vertical his swing path would be if he did not compensate by steering his hips to the right?

No, I cannot imagine! LOL!

PVDaddy wrote: ... Look below and see the dramatic effect the bending and rotating pole has on Lavellenies swing!

... Is it possible this counter side swing achieves better counter thrust bend to the pole at the top of his swing as well?

What counter side swing? :confused:

This idea, and this entire concept of the vaulter congnizantly steering the pole to the side is just nuts. That's NOT how it happens!

For those of you interested in how and why the pole bends to the side, here's the RATIONAL explanation - in accordance with the Laws of Physics ...

When the vaulter leaves the ground, he is going in a horizontal direction towards the pit. EXACTLY towards the pit (no side momentum). At this point in time, when the pole butt strikes the back of the box, the impact causes the pole to bend THROUGH THE TOP HAND. This bend can be controlled by the height of the top hand at moment of impact, and by the amount of physical energy generated by the jump impulse (and the jump impulse is in turn generated by the speed of the runup). This bend will be EXACTLY in line with the runway. If it's to the side at all, then bail!

This is 100% true if there is no push on the bottom arm. But if there's a bottom arm push, then that push (or pull, or pressure) is also EXACTLY in the direction of the pit (not to the side).

As the pole bends, some of this physical energy is transformed into potential energy in the pole.

During the vaulter's downswing (and assuming 100% of his body weight is being held through his top hand), the pole continues to bend directly ahead.

As his downswing transforms to an upswing (the whip, when his CoM passes the chord of the pole), some of his body weight begins to be held through EACH hand - top and bottom hand. Now you can call them 'left' and 'right' hand again, as they're now side-by-side.

This transformation in the swing coincides with a transformation in how the vaulter hangs on the pole. As DJ puts this - quoting Mike Tully self-describing his technique - 'the pole turns into a highbar'. So visualize doing a shoot to a handstand on a highbar - with arms shoulder-length apart. Essentially the same thing occurs on the pole. Where the vaulter's hands were once one in front of the other during the plant, takeoff, and downswing, they're now BESIDE each other - because the CoM is still going directly forwards (and up), and some hang weight is being transferred from the top hand to the bottom hand.

This is all it is - it's just HANG weight that moves the pole to the side. THERE IS NO PUSHING, STEERING, OR PRESSING THE POLE TO THE SIDE!

In fact, if a vaulter attempts to push (or press or steer) the pole to the side (even just a little bit), he will be flung in the opposite direction! Worst case, he will fly off the side of the pit! This is not just my opinion - this is according to the Laws of Physics!

Whatever you do, don't advise your vaulters to apply any sideways pressure to the pole!

Cripes!

Kirk
Last edited by KirkB on Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Decamouse wrote:Counter side swing -- counter thrust bend -- well I guess you did come up with some new terms -- free world -- freedom of speech -- got to just enjoy the discussion

I think RainbowGirl is being too lenient here, on this ADVANCED Technique Forum.

Freedom of speech must be weighed against misleading information THAT PUTS THE VAULTERS' SAFETY IN JEOPARDY!

STOP IT! Enough of this crap! :mad:

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:38 pm

The radical two leg sweep shows up on PVstudent's youtube channel with Yelena Isenbayeva. Was this before Petrov?

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:55 pm

Kirk:
This idea, and this entire concept of the vaulter congnizantly steering the pole to the side is just nuts. That's NOT how it happens!


I suggest you read post more carefully. I said the vaulter should make a correction on their SWING PATH! Nothing about steering the pole to the side! LOL
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