takeoff angle and beyond

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EIUvltr
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takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby EIUvltr » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:53 am

Recently I've been revisiting Roman's manifesto and a few related posts. I came across a video of Tim McMichael where he was trying to take off with only his right hand gripping the pole. Unfortunately he jumped right into the pole and supposedly chewed on some fiberglass. I was wondering why this happened. Is it because "American style" pole vaulters tend to jump in a back-flip action but you just don't know it because they push the pole with their left hand to retard any premature rotational movement? Or is it a product of not having a high enough takeoff angle? or something else???

Why is it so hard for someone not familiar with the 6.40 model to run down the runway and plant with just their right hand and not have it work properly???
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:42 pm

Well first off we have never seen anyone else attempt this. I tried it the other day, and I felt like I couldn't take my left hand off of the pole until after my takeoff was complete. I have not seen anyone else post any video of this except Tim, and when Tim did it he didn't take his hand off until after the takeoff was complete... The time he took it off before he got smacked. Does this tell us something?? I know Roman says its possible, but I will believe it when I see it.
It did prove Romans theory to me that the swing/ pole bend will happen with or without the left hand... So it can be passive or you can put it to work; VERY interesting!
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:43 pm

Well I don't want to blasphemy, but I think the 6.40 model is a theoretical model… I don’t know if anyone has actually used this style of pole vaulting. I actually e-mailed Tim my thoughts on this the other day. But I will blasphemy again and say that the bottom arm push (UP) serves a couple of purposes.
1- Fast extension of the arms up help the athlete put the last step down faster, the faster the top hand extends up the quicker the athlete should put the takeoff foot down.
2- 2- Pushing up with both arms help increase the angle of the pole before the tip hits the box and is essential for achieving a free takeoff. I know Roman will agree with me here
3- Post takeoff--- I am going out on a branch on my own idea here that the left arm pressure does play a role. I think it slows down the pressure going into the top hand. With out this left arm role the pressure would go all into the top arm suddenly and you better be using some adhesive if you want to hang on. Even with a free takeoff you have your speed + mass impacting a single hand all at once rather than both. To me allowing all the pressure to hit the top hand at once would cause a clothes lining affect, where the impact is swinging the vaulter rather the vaulter swinging on the pole.
4- If there is slight up pressure with the bottom arm during takeoff it will change the way the pole bends, the pole will bend slightly further away from the vaulter’s body.
Side Note—If the vaulter is using an appropriate grip width, plants in the center of the body, and pushes up with both arms THERE IS NO WAY TO BLOCK OUT. The pole will push both arms back and above the head, putting the vaulter in the “pocket”. Other factors including speed, takeoff point, post plant muscle actions in the will affect the depth of being in the “pocket”
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby Erica » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:36 pm

If the vaulter is using an appropriate grip width, plants in the center of the body, and pushes up with both arms THERE IS NO WAY TO BLOCK OUT.


Grip height has a lot to do with this... Its hard to actually push up when you are gripping 11 feet. The angle puts your hand in front, even if you are attempting to push up.

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:50 pm

but at some of his meets he would have gone out at lower height" That is why kids gripping low should use a narrow grip and that narrow grip should be used in all short approach drills.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:52 pm

Sorry about that = a part of a wrong quote got caught up in that!!
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:57 pm

Erica wrote:
If the vaulter is using an appropriate grip width, plants in the center of the body, and pushes up with both arms THERE IS NO WAY TO BLOCK OUT.


Grip height has a lot to do with this... Its hard to actually push up when you are gripping 11 feet. The angle puts your hand in front, even if you are attempting to push up.


That is true, but I am assuming that they are either just learning to bend the pole or aren't yet gripping that low. With that low of a grip= less speed and probably less mass.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:05 pm

"Well I don't want to blasphemy, (sic) but I think the 6.40 model is a theoretical model…" If you reread agapit you will find he believes that this model has already been demonstrated. Kyle -not sure you have a handle on the left arm. There has been a lot of discussion about it and you appear to have missed that. If you have BTB re read the appropriate sections because this is important - along with taking off under - perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of technique of all.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby vaultman18 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:14 pm

What is a "pocket" ? And why would you want to be in it? I think Roman would ask this too. :P

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:27 pm

altius wrote:"Well I don't want to blasphemy, (sic) but I think the 6.40 model is a theoretical model…" If you reread agapit you will find he believes that this model has already been demonstrated. Kyle -not sure you have a handle on the left arm. There has been a lot of discussion about it and you appear to have missed that. If you have BTB re read the appropriate sections because this is important - along with taking off under - perhaps the most misunderstood aspect of technique of all.


But what Roman says doesn't exactly coincide with what other coaches that have worked with Petrov say, and in any article related to Petrov he never talks about a pull… He always refers to switching on the shoulder muscles and covering the widest arc possible with the hands. If some how these are talking about the same thing I seriously need an enlightenment.

Secondly, I have re-read every thread started by Roman… I understand what he is saying the left arm should do, but obviously it hasn’t clicked for me yet. I am not saying the arms continue pushing into the pole after takeoff, but there should be an effort to push before the pole contacts the box, this is important!! Once the pole hits the box the arms can continue to try and push up, but the pole hitting the box will force the hands back and the vaulter will transition from pushing with the hands to pushing forward with the body until the takeoff is finished…. There is not enough time for a vaulter to differentiate when the push ends and the drive of body begins. It’s a feel. It happens so fast it kind of gets meshed into one. But once the body drives forward the left arm is used for balance.

And these are my own thoughts and Ideas Alan, I understand what everyone else is saying, this is what I am saying. I may be completely wrong because Lord knows I have been before. But I feel like I have enough evidence to run with this idea, one is the videos I have of Petrov and the drills he does, 2- some of his articles and what they suggest, 3- The video where Isi talks about the bottom arm.
I will work on showing you my evidence ;)
Last edited by KYLE ELLIS on Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:31 pm

vaultman18 wrote:What is a "pocket" ? And why would you want to be in it? I think Roman would ask this too. :P


Lol I know I am in for it, that is why I am coming to the camp in Nshville this summer to be enlightened :o :D ...
But the pocket to me is when the hips, chest, head, and left hand become aligned. Signifying the end of the takeoff (pre-stretched position from which to swing from)

Petrov also talks about driving the body forward, driving the chest, etc.... Other sins not allowed for in the 6.40 model, from what I have gathered there are some differences.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:21 pm

"it hasn’t clicked for me yet". Nor me -we have agreed to disagree on this - but as I have observed elsewhere -who am i to disagree with the coach of an indoor world champion? By the way - suggest you make sure you head to Knoxville not Nashville if you want to see Roma -that is if he can find a place for us to run a clinic.
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