Carbon Weaves Breaking?

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Wed Sep 09, 2009 12:51 am

kcvault wrote:I jumped on the Carbon weave poles 4 years ago when they were defective and I broke three within a couple jumps. I know they worked out the problems with them but i'm scared to jump on them now. They shave so much material off to make them lighter it has almost no protective layer. Also I bought a 4.90 14.3 and the old carbon pacers I jump on are actually lighter. Also the carbon pacers I use have nicks and scratches all over them and I have not broken any in 5 years. I wish they would not have discontinued making the 2002 carbon pacer model.


They don't shave anything off, the stronger carbon fiber allows them to use less material overall, that's why they're lighter.

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby kcvault » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:34 am

Didn't mean to say they shave material off just that since there is less material thoug the material is stronger the poles seem to be alot more sensitive to scratches.

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby 2-15-46 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:09 pm

I've seen 5 break this year!!!
Bob

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby GiVaulter09 » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:26 pm

I have 3 carbonfx weaves and 4 regular carbonfx's and have never had a problem with them. Love everyone of them!

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby golfdane » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:15 am

Removed content. Begun dialogue with manufacturer and european representative instead.
Last edited by golfdane on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby golfdane » Thu Feb 25, 2010 5:44 pm

Removed content. Begun dialogue with manufacturer and european representative instead.
Last edited by golfdane on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby 2-15-46 » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:01 pm

golfdane wrote:I found the Weave that I wrote about in the previous post. Noticed some od wrinkling of the carbon layer, and cut it with a finetoothed saw close to the fracture zone (about 2m from top of pole was the primary breaking point, I believe).
http://picasaweb.google.dk/golfdane/Weave#
Image

Looks like an air bubble........
Bob

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby golfdane » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:36 am

Removed content. Begun dialogue with manufacturer and european representative instead.
Last edited by golfdane on Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby altius » Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:19 am

Two points. The pole must only ever go from the vaulters hands to the catchers hands. The only punishment we ever employed was for the vaulter and catcher whose pole hit the ground or stands. We never had to use it often because it involved a 400 metre run with the heaviest/longest pole I could find for them at the time. Given that I had to do most of the fund raising for poles this was an important issue for me - as was the question of which poles to buy.

While I am not going to buy into the carbon fibreglass debate I believe that the advantages of a lighter pole have been over emphasised --if you use the correct carry and plant it is not a factor in performance - except of course when dealing with very old fibreglass poles - which seem to have been made of steel.. The critical thing to consider is that poles are tough and consistent - so that a pole lasts forever IF it is looked after and that one 15 / 160 behaves exactly like another 15 /160 from the same manufacturer. So without intending to upset anyone I will state that while there are other good poles around we always used fibreglass Spirits -which rarely broke despite very intensive use - and some fantastic Nordic training poles for young athletes. They were so tough that they never broke --- so Nordic stopped making them!!
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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby Bruce Caldwell » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:24 pm

golfdane wrote:Image

It looks like the carbon layer wrinkled when the top layer was wrapped on top of the carbon. Perhaps if the carbon layer wasn't tight enough, when the top layer was wrapped? There's almost no resin in the carbon layer (one of the ways to save weight). It crumbles very easily.

This is an example of a failure to roll the glass aligned. I have seen poles with wrinkles that in fact become stronger at that point.
And this may be an older weave pole. As the employees get better with the process I am sure there will be less of this.
Sometimes when rolling the glass may slack up and wrinkle.
I am not a fan of going so far out on a limb to make the very lightest pole with carbon as others have. I have chosen to be lighter than Spirit and Altius but not as light as GIll with what I feel is a much safer carbon solution. They use T300 weave strain to ratio of flexibility 1.2 % out of alignment ( weave also increase the ratio of flexibility) and we use T700 strain to ratio of 2.2% and T600 Uni strain to ratio of 1.8% placed helical in 13' poles on up. With helical we also gain some strain to ratio of flexibility over the length of the pole. Since we have done this we have not had any New Carbons break! (We had one pole this year that had a nick from a standard but did not break)
I am sure the expense companies have gone to to make a clean room and refined their techniques of rolling they will get better at it.
Just a note; Pole Ovens do not cook the pole!the oven does not heat or cure the pole the mandrel maintains the heat and radiates it to the glass. The oven is only an insulator to keep the heat in. Adding sensors may provide insulation info but the mandrel is where the hot and cold spots are created due to improper transfer of heat due to air rushing through the metal rod. We find using oil is the best transfer of heat transfer within the mandrel and it provides the most even distribution of heat!

Yes a very light weight pole will help you to lift the pole and carry it down the runway faster. IN most cases on a high school level it is over emphasized and unnecessary. JUST how light do we make these poles and just how much more can we charge for them? My carbon material cost me lost of money to get the best and the most flexible carbon made!
Are buying CARBON poles to provide a pole that comes back faster/Quicker than the double pendulum of the jump? If so you do not understand the art of pole vaulting. Faster/Quicker poles is not the answer it is the harm of the technique!!! Remember when for years poles were made to come back fast? And many vaulter could jump up to the bar by 2 feet get their hips over the bar but could not clear the bar? We had poles out here that required you to cheat and volzing the crossbar with your hand to make the bar or you just hit the bar all over and if it stayed on you jumped high! It is not about how high a pole can throw a 100 lbs weight straight up in the air? It is about getting over the bar and vaulting with what you brought to the meet!
So now we have Carbon that should be used only to lighten and stiffen the pole NOT make the pole return to vertical faster than the vaulter can swing up his/her pendulum??? The double pendulum pole swing and vaulter swing blending together to give you the most power and penetration to clear the bar.
( The key word penetration once thought needed only in the lower portion of the jump is also needed over the bar and also to land in the pit)
We made some poles for EARL Bell once that came back faster and he told us those poles we made special were very fast but he was not Superman enough to keep up with them.
As long as you vault with the understanding that any pole glass or CARBON can break if not built correctly or taken care of then you take all the risk in your own hands. The pole in the picture above does have a flaw in the rolling, this may or may not of contributed to its failure. I have seen less Carbon poles break in the industry and in fact it has taken ESSX three years of building and investing a tremendous amount of money and research costs to be where we are today with better CARBON poles that will hold up to today's Pole Vaulting needs.

Bruce Caldwell
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Last edited by Bruce Caldwell on Sat Feb 27, 2010 11:42 am, edited 9 times in total.

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby PVJunkie » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:54 pm

The Carbon Weave was not introduced in the men’s sizes until 2009. The poles Casey jumped on 4 years ago were prototypes, 3 generations removed from today’s model, and were a part of the process involved in developing the Weave pole. There were several coaches across the nation that chose to try out the earlier designs and while they were not available in the catalog until 2009 you likely saw prototypes being used successfully at all levels.

The photo posted is an example of the challenges of that past design. Gill Athletics has invested more into research and design of vaulting poles than any company in the world. The benefits speak for themselves. Carbon material provides light weight strength with a greater force in the unbending action. Yes it is possible to make a slow heavy carbon pole (there are still some Skypole Carbons out there) but why? It will only increase cost for a pole that will perform like a less expensive all glass pole.

The information being discussed in this topic is old news and irrelvent to todays Carbon Weave poles. While our agreement with all of the college and club coaches who chose to be a part of the development of the design was that the poles were to remain under their supervision it is clear that many of them have "leaked" into the market.

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Re: Carbon Weaves Breaking?

Unread postby kcvault » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:39 pm

I will say that the first time I jumped on the carbon weave test poles I thought they were the nicest poles I ever jumped on. I broke a couple which turned me off to them but I think the problems have been fixed. There were a couple of poles I jumped on in 2005 that I bent over a 115 degrees and did not break them and there was a lot of potential I thought to jump high on them. I would agree that you can jump high on any set of pole. However personally when I get to my bigger poles if I have a pole in my hand that is not a carbon pacer, carbon fx, or carbon essx I wont plant it because it feels to heavy and even the bigger carbon essx poles I am timid about because of how heavy they feel. So I say the lighter you can make a pole and still make it safe the better.

Also Annie got some weave poles yesterday and I did a couple of plant drills on the because I wanted to bend them to 90 degrees and see what kind of return the gave. From what I could tell they felt pretty solid.

--Kasey


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