The fitness of pole vaulters: a discussion...

[powerplant42]

I would be interested in seeing it, but if you don't 'buy' it, that's ok.

So let's go back to the discussion about pre-season diet (high excercise volume).

What I have come to believe is that there are four major 'intake times': pre-workout (plenty of carbs and protein), durning workout (carbs and water), post-workout (within about 10 minutes, plenty of protein), and before sleep (lots of stuff... this is where I'd like to hear some opinions). What I would suggest doing before (about an hour?) bed is making a shake... The last one that I made consisted of two bananas, a few dozen blueberries, .5 - 1 cup of flax seeds, tbsp. of creatine, two scoops of Muscle Milk, 2-3 tbsp. of peanut butter, 3 tbspn. of low fat yogurt, and enough milk to make it a liquid (4-5 cupsish?). Anything you would add or take away? Why?

[KYLE ELLIS]

Were did you get this information from?? In the article I talked about it says excess carbs before or after will inhibit natural release of hgh and other key hormones. He recommends within an hour after a workout eating a 40-30-30 snack. So Pre-workout 40-30-30, after workout 40-30-30... No carb or protien loading. And why in the world would you eat all that before going to bed??? I can tell your in highschool because if i ate all that before going to bed I would eventually weigh 250lbs.

What I do is set a specefic goal weight (competition weight) I figure out how many calories I need to maintain my weight with a hard workout (usually need 3000 calories) moderate workout (around 2600) and light days (2400). I will use my moderate as an example. I will eat 700 calories for breakfast, 800 for lunch, workout drink my creatine mix and eat a pb&j(300cals) then eat 800 calories for dinner. I eat 3 normal meals plus i eat a 40-30-30 snack plus creatine after workouts.

[powerplant42]

I'm not saying eat a carb-sandwich... A few pieces of bread (2-3) is good enough for before and during workouts I would say. Again, I started this thread so that I and others could learn. I want to correct any misconceptions that I've got, as long as the opposing argument has got some scientific weight to it. I am not saying that the article is incorrect. What I ask now is what is the biological reason for the hormone release inhibition?

[txpolevaulter_k25]

powerplant is onto something, but getting too much into it. I could understand a smaller "shake" but I would more likely be drinking it in the morning.

[KYLE ELLIS]

this is from the article
"It is insulin which influences all the human body's systems- hormones, growth, thyroid, pituitary gland, blood pressure and human growth hormone (HGH). HGH is produced approximately every five hours in the body or by intense exercise until anout the age of 25, and very little after that (once a night.) HGH is a natural anabolic hormone used in cell building and repair, which controls metabolism and regulates lean body massto fat ratio. A high insulin level inhibits the release of HGH. Eating high amounts of CHO one hour before or immediately after a workout will inhibit the release of this needed HGH. During a hard workout micro tears occur in the muscle. Immediately, this 'exercise induced release' of HGH goes directly into the muscle to repair and strengthen it. Again, high insulin levels bloch the HGH from entering the muscle to do the needed repair. All athletes must maintain a "balanced" blood sugar- insulin level to enable the natural release of HGH. Furthermore, HGH stimulates the release of IGF (Insulin Growth Hormone I & II) from the liver which interacts and reacts at the muscular level with testosterone and other local growth factors to stimulate muscle protien synthesis and reduce protien degradation (tissue breakdown and cell repair). This process is regulated by exercise and the amount of insulin released from eating within one hour of your workout."
His references - Barry Sears PHD (The Zone) Dr.Micheal Colgan (optimal sports nutriotion) etc etc..

Reason for this- When you exercise, many hormones are released from the pituitary gland, but most importantly epinephrine, norepinephrine, growth hormone, cortisol, and glucagon. The major purpose of growth hormone is to preserve plasma glucose while you are working out by stimulating the breakdown of fats (and therefore the use of fats) instead of glucose, therefore delaying fatigue. Another effect of growth hormone is to directly inhibit insulin-dependent glucose uptake by the muscles to also delay fatigue. The other effect (and the most well-known) is to stimulate amino acid uptake into the muscles, especially post exercise--as long as the hormone is still available--which it would be if the person didn't eat right away after eating right away after working out. Because, upon eating, the hormones released by the pituitary are switched. Instead of having high levels of the previous hormones, insulin is released to stimulate the uptake of glucose into the muscles for storage (to refill what has been used so that next time you work out you are ready to go). So, if one were to eat immediately after a workout (or for up to 30 minutes postexercise) the anabolic effects of growth hormone would be inhibited. Moral of the story---eat an hour after working out to get the full effects.

So your body can replace huge amounts of glucose if you eat something right afterwards. So you have to choose take advantage of natural hormone release or quicken recovery by eating.

[powerplant42]

I understand... partially... I'm not at your level of biochemical knowledge, but I get the idea. So basically, what this guy's saying is that the release of HGH will be inhibited because the body feels that it needs to use (waste) ATP on moving insulin instead (right track?) in order to get glucose from the food that's eaten right after... right? I guess that makes sense. But I am still not sold on the 'shake' theory. When you wake up, your body is in a catabolic state unless you do the right things to make it not be. I will do some article hunting later if need be.

[VaultPurple]

I was just researching how to increase HGH production without ... well accualy taking HGH.

I came across an article that had said these basic prenciples

1) Do not eat any fat 1 Hour before exercise
2) Only drink water durring exercise (It said that carbs tell the body not to release HGH)
3) About 25g of Protein immediatly after exercise

1*) It also said that 2g of Glutamine about 60-90 minutes befor exercise will cause your body to produce more HGH.

So I have been eating like 2 bagles an hour or so before I go to the gym in the morning, drinking a lot of water, and eating something like a protein bar afterwards for breakfast... I really think I need more food for breakfast, but I eat a lot periodicly through the day (like once every 2 hours). Have not started the Glutamine yet, was wondering what yall thought about that?

[powerplant42]

I did a little research, and yes, I think it would be a good idea. Check out some good articles on it!

[Split]

I know its good discussion and all, but I thought pole vaulters weren't supposed to be body builders?
You're suggesting we take all this stuff to bulk up?
I mean, I took protein for almost a year, and barely gained any weight. I went from 123 to 127. And I worked about about 5 times a week, for about an hour. This was last year, as an 8th grader, so maybe that was it.
However, since then, I don't think I've gained weight, instead actually lost some, as my last weigh in was 121.
And I also read that taking protein pills and such can actually stop your body from making natural protein because it then becomes dependent on the suppliments that you are taking.

[VaultPurple]

The protein and HGH is not to compleatly bulk up like a body builder, but to be stronger as an all around athleate. They help the muscels heal and develop faster as well as making you stronger. You dont want to be a body builder or anything but if you work out a lot you need a lot of protein to rebuild broken down muscle. Once you put on enough mucle mass then you can start to strengthen that muscle even more and do high weight low rep.


Speaking of eating and not gaining weight... Michael Phelps eats between 8000-10000 Cal a day and is only 6'4 19x. And as explosive as he is off the wall I bet he is just as strong as most pole vaulters. His is the extream end of the calorie bulking as he eats the same amount of food as about 5 people, but it goes the same way with someone training for sprints and weight training, you got to keep putting gas in the tank.

[Split]

8000-10000 a day?!?!
I only eat around 3000 or so..maybe 3500. It's mostly just like bread and meat. I think I'm just a hardgainer.

[KYLE ELLIS]

To split- you are in 9th grade, you shouldn't be taking any protien powder, or any supplements. You don't want to gain weight... Myabe add a little muscle when you get to college. The nutrition I am talking about is about making gains and accelerated recovery. In my above post I stated I try to stay at my competition weight (170lbs).. Which means no more extra mucle mass, just strength gains with what I have weighing 170.. Like I said i would weigh 250lbs if i drank a shake like the one powerplant refers too, but i bet you wouldn't gain more than a couple pounds. So use t while you can!