LJ experiment

[KYLE ELLIS]

This is an open invitation to anyone. So here is the deal try long jumping by driving your chest, record your best jump. Then jump without focusing on the chest drive, focus on a different aspect, record your best mark. Then compare the two

Me- age 25. PR- 17'2.

4left (or 8step) long jump
Result from driving chest- 16'8
Result from trying to accelerate off the board- 19'1

from agapits manifesto "4. Chest penetration is a compensatory action that redistributes rather than creates energy in the system. It helps pole penetration, but it does delay pull-push and for this reason alone must be abandoned if a vaulter inspire to ever clear a world record height (for men) or 5.20 (17 ft) for women.'

Should we use the term chest drive, or is this an illusion in the vault resulting from finishing the takeoff foot and planting with elastic shoulders?

[KirkB]

Kyle, I'm puzzled by your LJ expirement.

If I'm reading between your lines correctly, I get the feeling that you're hypothesizing that driving the chest doesn't improve your LJ performance ... so therefore it doesn't improve your PV performance ... so therefore you shouldn't do it. Is that it?

If so, then I think you're going down the wrong path of experimentation.

As Agapit says, chest drive helps pole penetration at the expense of delaying the "pull-push" that he advocates in his PV manifesto. Also remember that he's proposing a technique that will allow someone to clear 6.40. To date, no one to my knowledge ... including Bubka ... has been able to execute Agapit's 6.40 model as advocated. The fact that Agapit CLAIMS that Bubka has had some 6.40 clearances over some imaginary bars does NOT mean that he's executed the 6.40 model successfully. It only means that the model that Bubka helped Petrov develop ... the PETROV MODEL ... and used for his entire elite career ... not the 6.40 MODEL ... is capable of being used to clear 6.40.

Be careful not to assume that anyone other than maybe Bubka and Isaksson might be able to execute the 6.40 model. And since they're both retired now, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon. BTW, if Bubka was AWARE of the 6.40 Model ... then why didn't he try to use it ... and why didn't he clear 6.40 with it? (I know, I know, he went up a cm at a time ... and ran out of time.)

It's awfully difficult for every other "mere mortal" pole vaulter to do a handstand on the highbar from a hanging start ... and so it's equally difficult for us to properly execute the 6.40 model as Agapit has envisioned. I know I can't do that highbar trick ... can you ... or can you name anyone that can? Could Bubka? If anyone could, I'm conjecturing that it might have been Isaksson.

Should we use the term chest drive, or is this an illusion in the vault resulting from finishing the takeoff foot and planting with elastic shoulders?

You can call it what you like, but chest drive is the result of "planting with elastic shoulders" and "finishing the takeoff" to the point where you have your entire body stretched in a C like an elastic band ... ready to whip back into a vigorous downswing.

THAT'S the advantage of the chest drive.

It's strange that you say "planting with elastic shoulders" tho. In reality, the plant comes first ... then THE TAKEOFF ... then the finishing of the takeoff ... and then the stretching of the shoulders in unison with the stretching of the trail leg. Did you forget the TAKEOFF? OK, there's lots of overlap on these vault parts, so let's not quibble too much about the precise timing of them. It's just that I would expect the plant to be finished well before the shoulders start becoming "elastic".

It really has nothing to do with how well you jump off the ground a la your LJ expirement. The two are quite unrelated, IMHO.

I see that you were able to jump an extra 29" by focussing on "trying to accelerate off the board" rather than "driving the chest".

I'm puzzled as to why you wouldn't strive to do both ... first one, then the other ... first ACCELERATE OFF THE BOARD ... and then ... ONCE YOU'RE OFF THE BOARD ... drive the chest thru as you PRESS and SQUEEZE with your top hand, as the pole hits the box ...

... oh ... I forgot ... you're not carrying a pole ... so you have nothing to PRESS and SQUEEZE against ... and the pole that you're not carrying isn't going to hit the box that's not there ... so this chest driving expirement in LJ isn't going to work ... is it?

You see the problem?

I suggest that the chest drive comes AFTER your takeoff (AFTER you leave the ground) ... so it should have no effect whatsoever on your LJ experiment ... if done properly!

My conclusion on why you're able to add 29" to your LJ is that you're letting your focus of the CHEST DRIVE interfere with your focus on the ACCELERATION OFF THE BOARD.

If you SUCCESSFULLY focus on one and then the other ... without letting the CHEST DRIVE interfere with the ACCELERATION OFF THE BOARD, then there should be no difference whatsoever between your LJ attempts each way!

I know it requires some focus and practice ... but I'm quite sure that you can do it once you practice it 10,000+ times!

I know I did!

Kirk

[KYLE ELLIS]

Jesus, I have to be more careful with my words. Yes I meant having elastic shoulders during the takeoff, not the plant. (bad habit) for a long time i used the word plant for the plant and takeoff. sorry I gave you the wrong idea, since half your post/ rant was about that!

And your shoulders should be elastic during the takeoff, not after, as you suggested. The takeoff is complete when the trail foot has come back as far as possible.

Yes I agree there should be a "c" position, were it may appear the vaulter is driving the chest. But is thinking about driving the chest how they got to that position? (mainly talking about bubka)

I bring this up because I was trying to long jump like I pole vault, by driving the chest after taking off. And I jumped 16'9!!!! But when i thought about accelerating off my last step and finishing my takeoff (primarily focusing on my takeoff foot) I jumped alot further. And I am sure I was in a c position in

I asked the long jump coach today, Jarrod Tobler (pr-26'9) in 2008 if he thought about driving his chest during his jump. And he said no.

So I think driving my chest negatively affected my long jump, so why wouldn't it negatively affect my polevaulting?? I basically see the polevault as long jumping with a pole in your hands. So next time I will apply what I was doing in my long jumping and see if it has a positive affect on my vaulting.

And I did try combining the 2, chest drive with acceleration off the board, it was better but still well short of what I did only thinking about accelerating at takeoff. Maybe for me it makes my body tense? Maybe others will do better when they drive their chest, let see......

[KirkB]

OK ... it was a rant ... I admit it.

And since you mean "taking off with elastic shoulders" rather than "planting with elastic shoulders", I buy that.

I don't normally consider "finishing the takeoff" as part of the takeoff. I consider "takeoff" as everything up to and including your toes leaving the ground, and "finishing the takeoff" as everything after that ... up to and including the C. But since you call both of those the "takeoff", I agree with you on that. The elastic stretch is part of the takeoff, by your definitions (which are fine by me).

I still think you're trying to combine the "drive the chest" action with the "takeoff action" too much tho, and that's what's screwing up your LJ.

The way I used to think about it, there's two distinct (but slightly overlapping) actions ...

1. the takeoff ... which includes driving the lead knee up as quickly and as strongly as possible ... and also driving both hands up in unison with the leap off the ground ... and ...

2. the "finishing the takeoff" ... which includes the continuation of the lead knee drive ... plus the driving the chest forwards/upwards ... plus the lifting of the trail leg backwards/upwards (this is unique to my Bryde Bend technique and is a style variant of the Petrov Model) ... plus the stretching and PRESSING and SQUEEZING of the top hand in an upwards direction (but letting the force of the impact of the pole drive the top hand back above/behind the head - as high as possible).

So I would focus on (1), then after that I would focus on (2). I wouldn't focus on them both together, but all the things I described within (1) I focussed on doing together, and all the things I described within (2) I focussed on doing together.

So do you see how I kept (1) and (2) separate, and made sure that the things in (2) didn't interfere with the things in (1)?

By you lumping everything into a single action (your takeoff action ... which includes not only jumping off the ground, but everything up to and including the C) ... I think you're muddling (1) and (2). As per your textual definition of it all as "takeoff", perhaps you're not separating all this into two relatively distinct vault parts?

BTW, my terminology for "finishing the takeoff" back in the day was "Jump to the Split". It means exactly the same thing, I think. I just never heard the words "finishing the takeoff" until last year. I'm OK with using the current terminology, but you need to understand the 2 distinct parts of this ... the "jump" and then the "split" ... or the "takeoff" and then the "finishing of the takeoff".

Also ... speaking of long jumping ... I posted something in the Bryde Bend thread about what happened one day in 1972 when I decided to try long jumping for the first time since HS (1968). If you want a good laugh at my expense, you can read it on the 2nd page (Post #13).

Kirk

[KYLE ELLIS]

Hmmm I never thought of it as two parts. But one question if you actively jump off the ground wouldn't the force created naturally have the trail foot come back behind you (into your split position?). BUT you are saying that you jumped and pushed your trail leg back and lifted it slightly (jump to split?)

I have never tried to jump and then drive my chest up while in the air? I am probably trying to drive my chest up while still in contact with the ground (on my toe)

I thought that by trying to drive my chest that maybe I was tensing up, preventing me from finishing my takeoff fully. I will keep in mind the two components on the ground, and off the ground.

I will try and find your post, not to good at finding old posts though. By the way I am a terrible long jumper, and used to be much worse.

[KirkB]

... if you actively jump off the ground wouldn't the force created naturally have the trail foot come back behind you (into your split position?).

Yes, that's right. That's the "normal way" to do it.

BUT you are saying that you jumped and pushed your trail leg back and lifted it slightly (jump to split?)

Yes. I purposely LIFTED my trail leg back and up ... as I drove my chest up/forwards. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, so I got an extreme "C" out of this ... which I called the "Split" back in the day. (I never heard of the C back then.) Remember that this is an advanced technique. You need to perfect the "pure Bubka" technique (the "normal way") before you even consider trying this! (Or so it seems.)

I will try and find your post, not to good at finding old posts though. By the way I am a terrible long jumper, and used to be much worse.

Here ... try this ... http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=%22bryde+bend%22+%22long+jump%22

Take the top hit, then scroll down to Post #13.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Kyle, I know you like LOGIC, so try this on for size ...

In my BB technique, I jumped off the ground (#1), then I did (#2) as above.

The reason why this would be impossible to do all at once (as you seem to have been trying - at least at the LJ pit) is that you cannot lift the trail leg back/up until it's off the ground!

It's almost too obvious to mention, but I guess it's just another way to explain why you need to JUMP first, THEN drive the chest forwards/upwards. Since the leg goes back as the chest goes forwards, you're forced to wait until you're off the ground to do this. This is actually a "hidden advantage" of the "jump to the split".

Even if you DON'T lift the leg back/up, you should strive to make sure you're off the ground before you "finish your takeoff".

Kirk

[vault3rb0y]

i believe the chest drive is a mental que for LETTING your take off get finished, ie. your hands and trail leg coming backwards.

We dont know what mental ques long jumpers use, but regardless, here are some positions they get into-

http://www.nbcolympics.com/athletes/athlete=220/bio/

and an analysis of the long jump take off- http://www.brianmac.co.uk/longjump/

A long jumpers end game is sacrificing minimal horizontal speed at take off for as much vertical as possible, such as to land at a 45 degree angle in the sand (unless my long jump knowledge has been messed up) while triple jumpers maintain as much horizontal speed as possible in the first stage (www.trackandfieldnews.com/technique/146_Todd.pdf) and as far as i know, do not lower their COG with a penultimate. They even talk about avoiding overstriding and "clawing" the runway. The long jump technique, if accurate, suggests that the penultimate step in fact lengthens the very last step to take off. I feel that the triple jump is a more accurate take off than the long jump. Although you DO want to jump up as much as possible, not at the expense of a terrible pole drop, a low take off, and less horizontal speed once off the ground.

However i agree that you don't strive to DRIVE your chest, and that being elastic just puts you in that position. Whatever mental ques allow for the positions we are striving for, i think we should use them. We just make a differentiation between a mental que and a technical aspect of the jump.

[KYLE ELLIS]

and as far as i know, do not lower their COG with a penultimate. They even talk about avoiding overstriding and "clawing" the runway. The long jump technique, if accurate, suggests that the penultimate step in fact lengthens the very last step to take off.

Hmmm, i thought the whole point of the penultimate step was to lower the COG, to set up a opposite reaction in the rising of the COG at takeoff. Even though alot of people load up on the penultimate ...

Overstriding and clawing are not the same thing at all, in fact the clawing action can help prevent overstriding. Clawing to me is running dorsa flexed, and pulling through the ground striking on the balls of the feet.

[vault3rb0y]

Yea exactly, i said AVOIDING overstriding. Also, to work on clawing the runway. I can see how that wasnt clear.

The COG should not move down and then up according to the petrov model. Each stride is as quick as possible and at the plant you need to be as tall as possible. Someone jump in and correct me if im wrong, but after reading BTB on this section i saw no reference to a penultimate step.

[powerplant42]

I got the chance last summer to ask altius directly about the penultimate... He said to me that it was typically more or less hardwired in our heads/bodies (automatic), so it shouldn't need to be trained or even really worried about.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Yea exactly, i said AVOIDING overstriding. Also, to work on clawing the runway. I can see how that wasnt clear.

The COG should not move down and then up according to the petrov model. Each stride is as quick as possible and at the plant you need to be as tall as possible. Someone jump in and correct me if im wrong, but after reading BTB on this section i saw no reference to a penultimate step.

Well yeah I agree with you about the penultimate as far as pole vaulting goes. I thought we were talking about long jump. Any how there is a difference between the two. The pole drop I think replaces the penultimate importance in the polevault.