My HS Sr. Year Training Blog (by Joe Six-Pack)

[KirkB]

The terminology may have changed over the years, but the principles have not ...

Rowing has nothing to do with takeoff. It has to do with the action of the arms AFTER you've swung as far as you could, and you're still not inverted. So at this point, a GOOD option is to ROW. Like rowing a canoe. It's NOT as desirable as swinging right thru to the inversion in a continuous, harmonious action, but it's the best thing to do to salvage a vault where you're still not quite inverted after the swing.

I suppose you could say that a pulldown action with the arms anytime after you pass the point where the chord is shortest can be called rowing, as opposed to any arm actions prior to the chord. I'll explain that vault part in my next post - in reply to Wally.

The word "pulling" by itself is ambiguous, but it generally is referring to what you do with either your top arm or bottom arm (or both) immediately after takeoff - or at least prior to passing the chord.

There are 2 kinds of pulling. I proposed in a post a couple months ago to call the "pulling" that Agapit refers to in his 6.40 model as a "lat pull". The other kind of pulling is when you pull UP the pole with your top arm (in other words, shrugging the shoulder, or worse yet, bending the elbow of the top arm). That's a huge no-no, fraught with so many problems that I won't bother to list them all. I think everyone knows that they shouldn't "pull" on takeoff.

But back to the "lat pull" on takeoff now ...

I'm not a proponent of this, but my understanding of Agapit's posts (with some PM help from a PV buddy) is that it's not only pulling in the same direction as if you were doing a "lat pull" on a gym machine, but it's more than that. There's additional muscles involved besides the lats. Perhaps someone else can enumerate them, as I'm in a rush (and I don't know all my muscle names very well!).

For more details, search for "lat pulldown". You can also search for "lat pull", but you'll get more hits.

Anyway, it seemed that some definitions in today's posts were off a bit, so I hope mine clarify. Subject to your scrutiny, of course!

Later.

Kirk

[KirkB]

I had always thought rowing, by my own definition (driving the hands up at takeoff, and then constantly moving the top hand forward, while keeping it fully extended, during the swing and inversion) was a good thing. ...

Wally, if you separate the arm actions into those prior to the lowest point of the chord and those after the chord, you might be able to make more sense of ROWING vs. PULLING.

Prior to the chord, your phrase above is accurate, except it's not called ROWING. Rowing is during the inversion, but not during the takeoff or swing.

The action of moving from the "C" position to the "I" position - where your entire body is straight, just before the chord - is simply part of the SWING. On a highbar, this same action is moving from the C to the I - where your body is almost directly under the bar.

You're right - this is all GOOD! But it's not ROWING. It's simply part of the swing, wherein your top arm and your trail leg swing in unison from the C to the I. Using my BB technique, I initiated this swing by the trail leg action, whereas Agapit proposes (in the 6.40 model) to initiate this action by the top (and bottom) arms. If you ignore the bottom arm for a moment (a 6.40 model technique only, I believe), then the differences between my approach and Agapit's are very, very minor. In fact, they both coincide quite closely to what Altius recommends in BTB2 (i.e. the "pure" Petrov model).

This is the wrong thread to discuss the differences between BB and 6.40, so I won't go there now. I just want to make sure you understand the similarities and distinctions that you'll hear from various sources.

... Could you please explain what one should do with their arms during takeoff, swing and inversion, and how it compares to the above definition of rowing.

Very briefly, according to the Petrov model ...

On/after takeoff, you should STRETCH your top arm as much as possible, in unison with STRETCHING the trail leg as much as possible, by following thru on takeoff (i.e. finishing the takeoff). Included in this STRETCHING action is letting your chest drive forwards (i.e. not resist a full stretch of the top arm above and behind the head). This should put you into a good C position, which you SHOULD NOT pause in. YES, you want to PASS THRU the C position, but NO, you should not PAUSE in that position, as that would be a passive action (i.e. lack of action - lack of continuous body motion).

If Altius wants to clarify anything here, that's fine - let's go with his explanations, as per BTB2. This is just off the top of my head, from my own personal experience.

As you go from the C to the I, you swing your trail leg and "lat pull" your top arm as long and as quickly as you can. This is where you "make or break" your vault. If you're fast, you'll have the momentum to swing with a natural, continuous motion into an inverted position. If you're too slow, you won't become fully inverted, so you'll have to ROW to finish your inversion. In that case (which is the most likely the case with most non-elite vaulters), the rowing action with BOTH arms is recommended.

Many vaulters combine this rowing action with a tuck, but it's definitely much better to row than to row AND tuck. And I would guess that almost every tuck/shoot vaulter not only tucks, but also ROWS to get into the tuck. This is possibly where misconceptions are formed, as it's not the ROWING part of the tuck/shoot technique that's bad (as much), it's the TUCKING.

Maybe think of it in 3 categories ...

1. Those that don't row or tuck - the true Petrov model vaulters
2. Those that row but don't tuck - the Petrovers that are trying to salvage a vault after a poor swing
3. Those that row and tuck - the tuck/shooters.

I hope this clarifies what you should do (and not do) with your arms while you takeoff, swing, and invert - with respect to ROWING.

I admit that the above is a very brief explanation, leaving out a lot of details. Perhaps instead of arguing about the details, we can just agree on the high-level principles?

I do expect some argument from some posters that will quote Agapit's 6.40 model. Remember that you need to separate the technique that a potential WR-setter might use, vs. the technique that a non-elite vaulter might use. You aren't yet an elite vaulter, Wally, so I recommend that you NOT attempt to follow the 6.40 model. Just follow the Petrov model, and worry about the 6.40 model once you get over 19'+. In fact, to my knowledge, there's even very few 19'+ vaulters that follow the 6.40 model ... so far!

Kirk

[powerplant42]

The crucial question: Does it add energy to the system in a positive way?

Answer: It depends.

It depends on where you are in the vault. All the arms should be doing during the swing is be fully extended (perhaps with the exception of the 'lat pull'). If they are applying 'angular pressure' 'down' the pole, there is a problem! The pole goes forward, the vaulter goes back! JUST LIKE WHEN THEY BLOCK WITH THE BOTTOM ARM!!! Now, once the vaulter has SWUNG to the point where the pole has begun to unbend, 'row' all you want. That's called the pull-turn.

[KirkB]

BAD THINGS:
-Breaking my left-leg early
-dropping my drive-knee (but I strianed a muscle in my hip, a few days earlier, so I just think it was too weak to keep the knee, up. So that'll be better when it's back to 100%)
-Ugly 'L' position, from NOT dropping the shoulders and looking at the bar, maybe.

Not to dwell on the bad, but this is a critique, so ...

Yes, looking at your last 3 vaults, I agree with dropping the knee and the ugly L. Not sure what you mean by "breaking my left-leg early".

If you have an injury that compromises your technique, I don't know why you bother to vault. Seriously, why get into bad habits? Remember "imprinting"? IMHO, you're far better off working on drills or excercises that don't prolong your injury, and don't imprint bad habits. Then when you're healthy, you can focus on technique drills. Remember that technique drills are best when you're in top shape. Your technique won't improve if you're not feeling up to par. In fact, it will only get worse.

Yes, your L isn't good, you're not dropping your shoulders, and you're looking at the bar. But let's not even worry about that, as that's just the outcome of your faults in the bottom half. Fix the bottom half, and the top half will come.

The biggest problem is dropping the lead knee. If that's becuz of a muscle strain, then how do you expect to lift it back up again to the proper position after you've dropped it? If you can't hold your lead knee up, then there's no sense in vaulting. That is, unless you want to have a two-legged swing. Sure, that's the way Lukyanenko does it, but you'll also notice that he brings both legs back up to a very nice inversion. You're not strong enough to do that.

If I were you, right now, I'd work on whatever strength or gymnastic drills that you can, without hurting your strained hip. Not vaulting.

However, if your muscle strain isn't really so bad that it's affecting keeping your lead knee up, then it's a feeble excuse for why you can't keep it up. If you can keep it up, do it. If you can't, don't vault. It's that simple. (Tough )

Get healthy!

Kirk

[joebro391]

haha, thanks for the advice kirk. You're right, i should have vaulted. It was feeling good, that day, but then, as i was vaulting, is started to feel...bad haha. I just didn't want to have driven and hour and a half for nothing )= luckally, i'm moving back to a bigger facility which is only about 50 minutes away from me. So if i'm feeling bad, i can work on other things

Kirk, i've been reading A LOT about what you brought up, before; the "lat-pull". Honestly, i have no clue what you're talking about. I read a lot of your posts, in different threads and am still very confused. I'm just about to re-read the Pole Vault Manifesto. If i don't figure it out, there, i'll have to ask for a clarification haha. I just think it's about 'when' it occurs. I think, the way i've been reading, i interpreted it as: just after take-off. and i think it's actually supposed to occur, after inversion. perhaps is just another way to say "pull-push"??? not sure, so i'm gonna go read and see if i can figure it out. -6P

MY ANSWERS: okay, so i re-read some thangs. Mostly Kirk's BB thread. I cleared up my confusion about the 'lat-pull', realising that it's a forward, above your head motion, rather than a literal pull, with your arms.

But another question arose while i was reading the BB thread. It regards the 'sink' in the pole:

The pole still had to “sink” a bit more, before it would reach its shortest chord. This is similar to the bounce of a lacrosse ball. When you drop the ball to the floor, it will compress, flattening on the bottom. It will then expand – causing it to bounce back up off the ground (to a point a little below where you dropped it from). The pole works this same way – it hits the box; it’s compressed; you swing to the chord; it’s compressed some more; it “bounces”; and then it recoils. It’s during the time of this bounce that a couple interesting things can and do happen.

Personally, i think that WITH a sink, the pole recoils about a hundread times MORE powerfully, WITH a sink, just like kirk's lacross ball example. If you watch Bubka's 5.92 jump, in Tokyo, at the 1991 world championships, he has a huge sink in the pole. Here's the thing, on MOST of bubka's jumps (as far as i can tell), he did was most people say SHOULD be done, and made sure that the pole CONTINUOUSLY ROSE (no sink whatsoever). So what i want, is people to come up with some arguments FOR and AGAINST the sink. I'll start a new thread, in the Intermediate Technique section because I think things might heat up a bit haha. -6P

[KirkB]

haha, thanks for the advice kirk. You're right, i should have vaulted.

You mean you SHOULDN'T have vaulted!

... i've been reading A LOT about what you brought up, before; the "lat-pull". Honestly, i have no clue what you're talking about. I read a lot of your posts, in different threads and am still very confused. I'm just about to re-read the Pole Vault Manifesto ...

... Personally, i think that WITH a sink, the pole recoils about a hundread times MORE powerfully ...

Whoa!!! Slow down, 6P!!!

First, there's a HUGE difference between 6.40 model technique and "Intermediate Level" technique. The advice I gave to Wally (on this thread a few posts up) applies to you as well. His PR is 15-3, yours is ~14-0 or thereabouts. So please don't try to use the 6.40 model. It's just going to confuse you, and you don't have the athleticism at this stage of your career to execute it properly. And for the same reason, please don't try to use the Bryde Bend model. You need to perfect the Petrov model first!

Second, the SINK that I'm referring to is not the BB sink vs. a Petrov or 6.40 model sink. It's a generic sinking phenomenon that occurs agnostically to any model. The point is that once you apply all your energy into the pole, the pole still needs to "absorb" that energy during this "sink time" - just like the lacrosse ball analogy.

However, this too is ADVANCED technique. If you just consider that there is no SINK - that the swing applies energy into the pole, reaches its max bend once all the force from the swing is applied, then immediately begins to unbend (uncoil) - then that's close enough for INTERMEDIATE technique.

Remember that my BB thread and the PV Manifesto are on the ADVANCED technique forum. It' OK if you casually read stuff on that forum, but it's going to screw you up if you actually think that you can skip some progressive training steps and fast-forward to advanced technique before you get over 17' or so. Maybe 5.00 at the absolute lowest, but certainly not 16' or lower.

Also, this entire discussion about "lat pull" (here and in other threads) is about the 6.40 model, so please don't try to use it. Yes, it's OK to try to UNDERSTAND it (as long as you don't MISUNDERSTAND it, as you're doing now). But don't USE IT!!!

However, your conclusion here ...

MY ANSWERS: okay, so i re-read some thangs. Mostly Kirk's BB thread. I cleared up my confusion about the 'lat-pull', realising that it's a forward, above your head motion, rather than a literal pull, with your arms.

... is correct.

I hope I saved you one huge amount of confusion and possibly grief by what I just told you here.

Kirk

[joebro391]

yea kirk, for the most part, i'm just trying to understand it all, at the moment. I'm deffinately not at the stage of the game where i have to worry about where my toes are pointed and all the hair on my body is shaved off hahaha

[KirkB]

Yea, what i was doing, a few weeks back, was getting the bad, 'over-sink', from 2 things:
1) Over-gripping
2) Crushing the Pole

Like i said above, i've since started using lower grips, on much stiffer poles...so i guess it's done with haha. I got the flu kirk; but i'm not sure if my head's pounding from all this vaulting-logic, or from the fever hahaha

6P, your quote above is from your SINK IN THE POLE ... thread, but my reply belongs here, since it's about your personal training blog ...

Paste these words ...

short run tired injured technique

... into the Search box, and re-read the 2 posts that pop up!

But just for fun, before you do this, try to guess what those 2 posts will say about those words!

Also, look at the date of those posts.

Kirk

[joebro391]

funny man, kirk, funny man. But i get your point. Hey, i haven't vaulted in the dark in about 2 months, so eventually i'll stop vaulting while injured (yes, that's sarcasm, so no one has to ring in on that) haha

PS: I read Voltuer's post about einstein and other philosophers. You said "how does petrov's name fit in there?" and personally, I think it's totally appropriate to have petrov and einstein's together like that. But that's just a vaulter talking haha

[joebro391]

wow, it's been a long time since i've posted here. I kinda miss you guys haha. But let's get down to business. Not too long ago, i became rather ill (if you remember, my last post mentioned a fever). Well, that fever turned out to be some horrible virus that put me in bed, for about 2 weeks (i still have some minor symptoms, even now!). So the last few weeks, have been me, just getting back in shape. I've vaulted 3 times in practice, since getting sick, and had 1 meet. I'll try my best to outline, more specifically what i've been doing.

***REMEMBER...it's only gone above 35 degrees here, 3 times since i got sick, so outside training is pretty much out of the picture.

SICK (11/24 - 12/7): hmm, i'd say that i was bed-ridden, the last week of novemer and the first week of december. The second of those weeks, i did some light upper-body stuff at home (abb-stuff and push-ups mostly)

RECOVERY (12/8 - Present): the second week of december, i spent, on a stationary bike, at my school's fitness center and did some very light lifting (mostly calisthenics). After that, i vaulted 3 times, i honestly can't remember the specific dates, but it was very light, just getting back in the motion of everything. I found that, my strength had not totally left me (despite losing 6 pounds ) but my stamina was GONE.

FIRST MEET OF SEASON (12/29): well, as i'm sure you guys can see, i was kinda unprepared (by this time, it had been about a week and a half since i last vaulted). So i went with my most recent 6-left approach and just hopped on a light 14' (14' 145). I did okay, i guess. My run was decent, i had a nice, high take-off, and i had a so-so drive knee. My Left swing-leg was non-exsistent yet, somehow, probably because the pole was so light, my inversion was pretty good. I went 13', which i can't really complain about, considering the conditions (I give credit to the sand-pit drills that i did, the day before. i managed to hold 10'9 from 3 lefts, straight-poleing. is that good?? haha). I'll post up the video of the meet, in another page (where i'll get much more specific), and then post the link here. viewtopic.php?f=39&t=16587

NOW: so that's about it i guess. I'm finally starting to feel back to my old strength (due to a lot of indoor-running and a pull-up bar that i got for christmas hehe). I won't be able to vault again until January 12th, which is okay because my next meet isn't until the first week of February. In the meantime, i'll just be running and doing other strength exercises, as well as sand-pit drills, if the weather's decent. Once i start vaulting again, i plan to kick it into high-gear and try and push my run back, once i've fixed my problems and get on 15' poles. Well there it is. Peace and Love. -6P

[KirkB]

6P, welcome back!

To come off your sick bed and vault 13-0 without much practice is actually quite good. No, you should never be satisfied, but you should at least be encouraged that you didn't bomb out.

Instead of critiquing your vaults, I'm going to give you some advice about your mental game ...

Don't dwell on the bad vaults. Write them off quickly, and move on. Focus on the positive. When you stand at the end of the runway for your next vault, think about your last GOOD vault, and then think about just ONE thing you're going to do differently (or better) to improve your technique.

And on your next practice, start out where you left off in the meet - thinking about your last GOOD vault - your 13-0 vault. Give yourself a positive frame of mind by telling yourself that at a minimum, you can now clear 13-0 any day of the week. That's your new starting point. Pretty soon, this will become 14-0, then 15-0.

This advice is about keeping a POSITIVE frame of mind, and incrementally getting better and better each jump, each practice, and each meet.

Yes, you need to recognize what you did wrong on a bad jump (else how can you fix it?), but don't fall into the trap of "don't do this" and "don't do that".

Instead, think back to the previous GOOD jump, and think about "do this" and "do that" and then "do this a little better". The "do this a little better" is ACTIONABLE, whereas the "don't do this" isn't.

See the difference?

Don't even try to analyze what went wrong with your last 3 missses. You had a good warmup, made some bars, and cleared 13-0. That's a great opening meet! Shed everything else from you mind, except your 13-0 clearance, and what you can do to improve on that.

You could even edit out your last 3 misses. Nobody cares about your misses, and you shouldn't care either. Get them out of your mind by getting them off your vid.

That might sound callous, but it's not. If you publish just your best jump, everyone will comment on just that one - in depth, which is what you want. If you mix in your bad jumps with your good ones, you might get comments on vaults that really don't matter (because you already know why you screwed it up). Don't be a pack rat with your vids. A good photographer throws away 95% of his pics, just to get the perfect cover shot. Less is more.

OK, if you had a near miss that was better than your highest (or best) clearance, then you should analyze that one, as that's your BEST jump of the day (whether you cleared the bar or not). But your final attempt really wasn't that close. You were probably tired by then, and your best jumps were already behind you.

Tough .

Give yourself a pat on the back!

Kirk

[joebro391]

Oh Kirk, i missed you so much! haha. Yea, I completely understand what you're saying about staying positive. My uncle right books about these matters (Happiness is a Decision of the Mind haha) So I do try and stay as positive as I can My next practice is the 12th, so I'll just keep doing running exercies and sand-pit drills and get some footage, next week

I honeslty do have a real positive attitude; it says "swing the left leg" haha. -6P