Why you cannot use the flex # to move between brand poles

[rainbowgirl28]

Broken pieces of crossbar (with the rough ends sawed off) have made great poles for the elementary kids I have coached.

In Tim Reilly's awesome instructional video, he used a crossbar to do push plants with a very small girl vaulter. I believe at the time he did not have a pole that was soft enough for this girl to bend, so he stuck a plug on the end of a crossbar and it worked out great.

[Barto]

Being a very small high school kid, I was able to jump consistently over 13' on crossbars all the way up to my Sr. year.....not that I woudld advise it now. I weighed about 85#.

Barto

[vaultdad]

I don't mean to nit pick, but many of your statements are presented without any supporting evidence as universal truths. This board is a wonderful opportunity to ask questions and exchange ideas. I would prefer it not be used as a spring board for one person's opinions.

Barto[/quote]

Respectfully,

Given that this is an informational type of posting in an open forum, I'm surprised by this comment. Does everyone really expect engineering analysis on load bearing, response curve analysis, and longitudinial characteristics of an axial aligned composite manufactured media to be presented here in detail? If so, I need to let a few engineering students I know join the forum. . .

I would like to say that Bruce is in many ways a pioneer. And the two most common definitions of a pioneer are: one who travels out and establishes new settlements in previously untrampled lands (to them), or the farmer with the arrows in his back to prove he tried to. I would imagine all of the athletic equipment manufacturers have been there. If this were not true, UCS would still be putting laundry bags together for a living. If you don't like the way a pole is built or designed, simply choose another vendor, but don't expect a manufacturer to go into patent level detail to satisfy a reader in a public forum. Enough said.

[Bruce Caldwell]

When I was very light and it seems a million years ago for those who know me please stop laughing!
We used a Black very flexable Plastic Pipe. It would never come back just would bend.

And in those days when a bamboo pole was wonderful we use to jump 8'6" with a 4 step approach on a 7' cane pole, now that was technigue.

Now we have made poles for Earl Bell's kids, and many special custom poles.
ON our shelves we have a 10'6" 66 lbs
we have made 11'6"-77- 92.6- 99.0- 94.8-82.4 lbs poles

I envy the fact that kids can get such great poles now, in the past we would of given anything to have such a tool.

[Barto]

vaultdad wrote:

"Respectfully,

Given that this is an informational type of posting in an open forum, I'm surprised by this comment. Does everyone really expect engineering analysis on load bearing, response curve analysis, and longitudinal characteristics of an axial aligned composite manufactured media to be presented here in detail? If so, I need to let a few engineering students I know join the forum. . . "

Respectfully,

I responded to this thread originally for the very reason you stated above, namely that this is an open forum and should be used for information exchange and open debate. It should not be the launching point for one persons campaign to spread misinformation among the less informed public. If a manufacturer is going to make statements of fact regarding analysis on load bearing, response curve analysis, and longitudinal characteristics of an axial aligned composite manufactured media publicly then they had better be willing to produce the supporting evidence publicly.

It is my opinion that Mr. Caldwell originally published this thread in an effort to misinform the public and gain support for his opposition to the proposed standardized guidelines for pole flexing being considered by ASTM in last weeks meeting in Tampa, Florida. It is also my opinion that these guidelines would greatly benefit the sport by making it much easier to switch from pole to pole and forcing manufacturers to produce safer more stable poles. Had Mr. Caldwell originally begun a thread debating the merits of these proposed guidelines, then I would have had no issue with it: however, he chose to pursue his goals in a less than open and honest manner. I took issue with his methods.

Mike Bartolina
"Barto"

[Bruce Caldwell]

Barto

It should not be the launching point for one persons campaign to spread misinformation among the less informed public. If a manufacturer is going to make statements of fact regarding analysis on load bearing, response curve analysis, and longitudinal characteristics of an axial aligned composite manufactured media publicly then they had better be willing to produce the supporting evidence publicly.

I agreed with you Mike and I did go back and amend the statement to read:

“The Axial pole is being used by many vaulters already and is proving to be a more efficient way for us to produce carbon poles.

And I invited you to come and take a tour to better understand why we say that?

Barto

It is my opinion that Mr. Caldwell originally published this thread in an effort to misinform the public and gain support for his opposition to the proposed standardized guidelines for pole flexing being considered by ASTM in last weeks meeting in Tampa, Florida.
Mike Bartolina
"Barto"

Thanks for your opinion, I did not attend the meeting, however the intent of the post was to inform not mis-inform we have enough misinformation from those who do not understand the make up and purpose of flex numbers.

Barto

It is also my opinion that these guidelines would greatly benefit the sport by making it much easier to switch from pole to pole and forcing manufacturers to produce safer more stable poles.
Mike Bartolina
"Barto"

Mike with the existing method of measure of flex numbers it is impossible to standardize the flex spans in an effort to align all makes, brands, and designs to read the same flex number. It is impossible, not mis-information. It was my intention to show why it is impossible and to provide a means for one to find the same information on their own.
This is not mis-information this is fact; The same flex spans will not yield a measurement of the diameter of the pole, the amount of wraps in the design, the type of glass being used, the amount of hoop in the design, nor the type of resin used in the glass, it only measures the stiffness of the part, it does not tell one that this is a vaulting pole, only the design and make up do that. All those variables make the flex number different even though it may be used for a given weight rating. Flex numbers do not insure load bearing as you have exclaimed only relative stiffness.
Otherwords if you read about the rod in post added 11/23/03 that reads on the flex scale as a 11-140 is really a crossbar I would not call that a stable product due the flex number reading! on the current system. That was not my statement but actually Steve Chappell's and I agree with him
Barto

Had Mr. Caldwell originally begun a thread debating the merits of these proposed guidelines, then I would have had no issue with it: however, he chose to pursue his goals in a less than open and honest manner. I took issue with his methods.
Mike Bartolina
"Barto"

To be honest the proposed ASTM guidelines were not shared with the manufacturers it was kept secret, and I was not at the meeting. I made no mention of any ASTM dispute? I made no mention of any proposal. If you had a copy of the proposal, you are not on the committee and why would you have it when the manufacturers and others on the committee did not?
So your comments are about something I did not have access to.

I would like to debate this but only had heard rumors as to what they were trying to pass or present.
SO my post was informative as to what we had discovered and was our opinion based on the test we had performed.

In Referance to the meeting I only have heard stories but I was not there so I cannot comment on the hearsay OK
I was told that a few other manufacturers had some of the same comments that it is not possible to standardize the flex system with the current method.
See the post revised 11/23/03

The title of the thread is
Why you cannot use the flex # to move between brand poles.

You still cannot do this and it is not recommended. ANy one who tells you otherwise is providing mis-information, any one who tells you that you can just by setting the spans the same is incorrect.

The best way is to go by the weight rating then within the brand or the length you can use the flex number to fine tune your jumps and pole selection.

I am sorry that you feel my motives are less than open and honest;
That is not my nature! AS I am told by many that I am too honest and too open LOL I hope you have the oppertunity to visit us soon to really get to know me and our company, it makes no differrence if you are selling PACER GILL now as we think of you as a part of the vaulting community.


PS In talking with Paul Richards of Altius and Steve Chappell of UCS spirit, we have relatively the same spans used by them. We have not gotten the information from the other two manufactuers to compare as to why their numbers do not match ours.

MIKE we still have an open invite for your visit to us. We look forward to meeting you, and as we offer to the others who come through you may stay with us as our guest at our home.

[Bruce Caldwell]

another confirmation of this from UCS/SPIRIT

http://www.pvei.com/index.php?pagename= ... sprint.php

[rainbowgirl28]

another confirmation of this from UCS/SPIRIT

http://www.pvei.com/index.php?pagename= ... sprint.php

See I don't interpret their article to mean that. The way things are now, everyone agrees that you cannot look at flex numbers between brands because they are achieved slightly different ways.

The article does not say anything about what would happen if all poles were flexed under a standard way. We won't really know what they think about that unless someone from UCS gets on here and tells us.

Not everyone even agrees with their chart. Jan adds 20 pounds of stiffness when you go down a foot on a pole. Perhaps that is another area the industry needs to try to come to some agreement on.

[Bruce Caldwell]

I guess it is all in the interpetation of the reader
QUOTE FROM THE SITE!
[size=100]

Relative Stiff Between Pole Length Of A Single Brand
an adaptation of information developed by UCS/Spirit
http://www.pvei.com/index.php?pagename= ... sprint.php
THIS CHART SHOULD NOT BE USED TO COMPARE THE STIFFNESS RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TWO DIFFERENT BRANDS OR MAKES OF VAULTING POLES.

It is my opinon that the Jan's estimate of 20 lbs per 1 foot is questionable!
but I am sure that Jan has a reason to use that as an estimate when you use his system to move between poles.
I cannot say it is wrong on his brand poles!
Maybe a grip adjustment with that.
He might be referring to below the grip area where the pole gets much stiffer per inch.

We show an estimated difference between lengths of 8 kilos or 17.6 lbs Maybe when you are averaging the weight rating on your brand poles one can use 20 lbs???

[color=blue][b]Beside a Pacer/Skypole 14-120 is estimated to be a14-120 lbs pole
It is really a 425-54 which is 13.95â€Â

[PVJunkie]

The chart is a guide by WEIGHT.......being that 2 poles (from different manufac) could have the exact same flex and different wt ratings is why you cannot use that chart between brands. It has nothing to do with standardization. I would say the same of any wt based chart right now. Until there is a standard that all maufac use the wt based chart is only good for one brand.................I guess as a follow up, how does the pole calc take into acct all brands, I have seen you state that it works for all brands.

NEVER AGAIN........I promise Becca

[rainbowgirl28]

NEVER AGAIN........I promise Becca

Heh I am not the one you need to be telling that to!

[lonestar]

[quote="ESSX"]
It is my opinon that the Jan's estimate of 20 lbs per 1 foot is questionable!
but I am sure that Jan has a reason to use that as an estimate when you use his system to move between poles.
I cannot say it is wrong on his brand poles!
Maybe a grip adjustment with that.
He might be referring to below the grip area where the pole gets much stiffer per inch.

We show an estimated difference between lengths of 8 kilos or 17.6 lbs Maybe when you are averaging the weight rating on your brand poles one can use 20 lbs???

[color=blue][b]Beside a Pacer/Skypole 14-120 is estimated to be a14-120 lbs pole
It is really a 425-54 which is 13.95â€Â