pole transitions (grip)

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pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby anniepv17 » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:02 pm

In look of any help with the mathematics on where to grip between poles of different lengths

I am in the understanding that a .8 increase/decrease in flex (on the same length pole) changes your grip 2 inches in either direction.

How does a change in length (i.e. going from a 13' to a 13'6 or 14') influence the grip change?

For example, where would someone grip if they held 12'8 on a 13' (15.1) and there next pole available was a 14' (19.8)?

I'm guessing there is some rule i'm not aware of at the moment, thanks in advance for any help given.

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby PVJunkie » Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:03 am

The way you have this worded is confusing but I will take a shot at it.

A change in flex has no impact on grip height and a change in grip height has no impact on flex. As you raise or lower your grip the stiffness at that grip height is different but the flex of the pole (test results that determine max weight rating) remains the same.

In look of any help with the mathematics on where to grip between poles of different lengths
- If you are looking for some mathematical solution that uses flex #'s to calculate the difference between two different length poles I don't think it will be possible. The increase in stiffness each 0.1 of flex represents depends on the weight rating/stiffness of the pole. Most of the time (with most poles) 0.1 change in the flex of the same length pole is about 1/2 pound of stiffness but on stiffer poles it will be more and on softer poles it will be less. It will be difficult to account for that variable.

I am in the understanding that a .8 increase/decrease in flex (on the same length pole) changes your grip 2 inches in either direction.
- Not sure what you are saying here. If you switch poles to one that is 0.8 (about 4 pounds) stiffer why would you move your grip? Grip and stiffness compliment one and other but are not linked.

How does a change in length (i.e. going from a 13' to a 13'6 or 14') influence the grip change?
- It doesn't.....simply switching to a longer pole, assuming it is the correct stiffness, has no impact on where you can safely grip. If you need grip height raise your grip, if the pole is too soft increase the stiffness and sometimes you can do both. I recommend you increase stiffness first then grip height.

For example, where would someone grip if they held 12'8 on a 13' (15.1) and there next pole available was a 14' (19.8)?
- The rule is if you need a 5 pound stiffer pole in the next longer (6 inch) length you reduce the weight rating of the pole by 5 pounds but dont change your grip....much. IE - if you are on a 13/15.1 (170) the next stiffer pole in a longer length is a 13'6"/165 at approximately the same grip. In your example at approximately the SAME grip (12'8) height a 14/19.8 (stiff 155) would be approximately a 5 pound stiffer pole than the 13/15.1 (stiff 170) BUT the margin for error is much greater when changing a foot in length vs 6 inches. Are you switching poles because you need grip height or stiffness?

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:30 pm

anniepv17 wrote: ... where would someone grip if they held 12'8 on a 13' (15.1) and their next pole available was a 14' (19.8)

Assuming that the reason for moving up to the 14' pole is that you're over-bending the 13' pole, I would keep the same 12'8" grip for the first few jumps, then move the grip up gradually.

However, the difference between a 15.1 flex and a 19.8 flex sounds like it may be too much for you to handle all at once (but I'm not sure). It would be better (and safer) to move up to a 13'6" pole, if one is available (even to just borrow someone's for a few jumps before you move up to the 14' pole).

i.e. Move up in poles, grip, and flex in small, incremental steps. The smaller the better. :idea:

If you're not over-bending the 13' pole while gripping at 12'8", but want to grip higher, I would still look for a 13'6" pole before going to the 14' pole. It's just an easier transition.

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby Oldcoach » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:11 pm

Your 14'-19.8 is almost identical to the 13'-15.1 when gripped at 12'8. as previously said start with a 12-8 grip and move up grip gradually.

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:00 pm

Oldcoach wrote:Your 14'-19.8 is almost identical to the 13'-15.1 when gripped at 12'8.

I stand corrected. Thanks, Oldcoach. (I told you I wasn't sure of the flexes.)

Oldcoach wrote: ... start with a 12-8 grip and move up grip gradually.

Yes, and if the 13' and 14' poles have the same bend like you say (even though the flexes are different), then there will be no need to find a 13'6" pole to move up gradually.

It's also advisable to get a good jump on the 13' pole at 12-8, then immediately (within a few minutes) take your first jump on the 14' pole, with exactly the same grip, steps, and technique. I mention this because it takes courage to jump on a pole you haven't tried before, and if you hesitate or change your technique in any way, you won't be putting the same amount of force into the pole, thus it won't bend as it should (as expected).

That's why you want everything to be the same (same runup speed, same takeoff speed, and same technique), so that the only variable left is that you're using a different pole.

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby anniepv17 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:26 am

thank you both for the replies!

I see that even though the 14' has a much higher flex, they pretty much even out

I'm still wondering if there is some kind of rule to go by when moving up length. The next pole in my old series was a 13'6 (17.2) and on that I only gripped up 2 inches higher than the 13' (15.1). When you move up length is there a set amount of flex you have to increase to balance out? Or was I just gripping in the wrong place?

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby Oldcoach » Sun Aug 02, 2015 10:03 pm

For what its worth your 13-6 17.2 is roughly the same stiffness as the 13-0 15.1 and the 14-0 19.8 when gripped at 12-8. So you have 3 poles that are virtually the same for a 12-8 grip. So does this agree with your experience on these 3 poles? By this I mean do you penetrate the same depth on all 3 poles gripping 12-8?

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby anniepv17 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:15 am

@oldcoach

The 13'6 felt stiffer , and I was gripping ~ 13' on that. It was an old pacer fx that was a lot heavier than the pole before it, so I had some mental issues with moving it through as well. Unfortunately I can no longer use that pole.

I think what confuses me about what PVjunkie wrote is what he mentioned about changes in flex not impacting grip height. Depending on how well you jump up at takeoff and the overall efficiency of your vault, if you find a specific spot on where you should grip on one pole, shouldn't it be easy to know where to move up from there? In my mind jumping on smaller length poles, with lower flexes is ideal to get more blow/jump higher. But now i'm at a point where I am close to running out of grip and need help choosing a new 13'6 to jump on.

If I jump on one brand (pacers) then shouldn't the transitions between poles be fairly easy to calculate? Or is it always going to be something I need to test out with any new pole I try?

If anything, what pole would you personally suggest I transition to if I am blowing through a 13' (15.1) and am looking for a stiffer pole.

Thanks

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby PVJunkie » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:50 pm

I think what confuses me about what PVjunkie wrote is what he mentioned about changes in flex not impacting grip height.

Grip and stiffness (flex) are not directly linked. You can use two different poles and grip them in the same location or you can grip a single pole in multiple locations.

Just because you are switching to a different (stiffer/softer) pole does not automatically mean you should move your grip.

Take a look at the chart below, I believe it will help you some in what you need in the next pole.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B35ntVcBXNokbkdpeUoxNklTQ3M/view?usp=sharing

The 13'6" felt stiffer because it is. I converted the flex #'s you were giving to the weight rating of each pole but that could be off a little depending on what brand they are. What are the weight ratings of the poles you have?

Of the 3 poles you mentioned: The 13/15.1 (stiff 170) is softer than the 14/19.8 (stiff 155) by about 5 pounds and the 13'6"/17.2 (stiff 165) is a similar pole to the 14/19.8 (stiff 155) if you start with a 12'8" grip height on each of them.

Take a look at this chart for how different length poles relate to each other in stiffness. The chart used to be sent with each pole we shipped but since it is now easily available online we stopped including it. Each row represents poles that are similar in stiffness at a similar grip height.
http://www.antigravitypolevaultclub.com/pole_stiffness_chart.htm

IF you need grip height (according to the chart above) the next pole would be a 13'6"/165 but only raise your grip a little this time (not a full 4 inches).
Last edited by PVJunkie on Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Aug 10, 2015 4:27 pm

PVJunkie wrote: IF you need grip height (according to the chart above) the next pole would be a 13'6"/165 but only raise your grip a little this time (not a full 4 inches).

Thanks for the 2 charts, PVJunkie. They're very helpful!

For the very first attempt with the next pole up, I suggest to keep the grip exactly the same, rather than raise it "a little". The results of that attempt will suggest how much to raise it on the very next attempt, and your first chart (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B35ntVcBXNokbkdpeUoxNklTQ3M/view?usp=sharing) is a good guide for this decision.

Annie, the weights and lengths of your poles (13-0 170; 13-6 165; 14-0 155) should be your PRIMARY indicators of stiffness (not the flex #).

I've abbreviated PVJunkie's 2nd chart here, which shows the relative stiffness of your 3 poles:

pole transitions (grip).png
pole transitions (grip).png (18.43 KiB) Viewed 17919 times


So as PVJunkie said, your 13-0 170 is slightly softer than your other 2 poles (which have near-identical stiffness).

Annie, I think your confusion is that you were thinking that the flex # was more important than the weights and lengths of your poles. In my experience, you should only worry about the relative flex numbers of poles that are the same length, same brand, and have the same weight rating.

PVJunkie, do you agree with this?

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby PVJunkie » Tue Aug 11, 2015 4:23 pm

Thanks for interpreting my somewhat overly detailed explanation Kirk.

Yes I agree with your recommendation. While raising grip a little (about an inch) is pretty typical, not moving it at all eliminates that additional bit of change from the equation.

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Re: pole transitions (grip)

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed Aug 12, 2015 1:59 pm

Charts showing how poles relate to each other by using lbs is not helpful at all. Flex numbers are what gives you information. Relating it to how it impacts your grip would be more useful. And just moving up your grip on a bending pole just to raise it, doesn't make much sense to me. It's not a rigid pole, so moving it up is going to change the timing of how long the pole stays bent, chord length (when the pole is bent), etc. So while changing your grip doesn't change whatever flex number is written on the pole, it does make the pole stiffer or softer.

I think what the poster is getting at is how flex numbers relate in different lengths.
for example a 13' 15.1= a 13'6 17.7= 14'0 20.3 (something like that)

From talking to Bryan and experimenting, I know that usually the flex change between length of poles is around 2.4- 2.6, but it varies between lengths. It would be nice if it was uniform across the board and they were all 2.4 different with the length change. That would give us coaches a lot more helpful information. If someone starts talking about the chart with weights when I am ordering a pole it's just going to irritate me.

lb's on a pole really has no meaning. Who came up with it and determined it anyways? It changes between pole companies, and where your max hold can be also varies. I wish we could break away from the weight labels and just talk flex numbers. I f Sam Kendrick's used any pole around his weight and hold where he was allowed, he would obliterate every pole. As would most high level pole vaulters. And if most low level vaulters grip down on a pole at their weight, they land short. How is this helpful? And a lot of it is due to "well this pole is 15ft and equal to my weight, so I should just hold at the top"

Alright, I'm hopping down off my soap box
Last edited by KYLE ELLIS on Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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