Striding Out at Takeoff

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burnhamj
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Re: Striding Out at Takeoff

Unread postby burnhamj » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:46 pm

I understand what both grandevaulter and coachstark are coming from. I have always been taught to count during my approach and I will continue to always count. Yes, it may get in the way of the mentality of the jump, however there are many more important parts of my jump that take higher priority in learning. I am just a collegiate vaulter and if I ever become professional, maybe I will work on it haha :D

grandevaulter wrote:The run, plant and jump drill is one move short of completing what it is intended for. "JUMP UP"

I thought this exact same thing when I watched the video and was already going to incorporate the jump into the drill. Still good drills none the less.

grandevaulter wrote:
coachstark wrote:do you count your steps during your approach run?

Why? :eek:
coachstark wrote: So, if you do count your steps, make sure you start to move your hands at the same point each attempt.

When? :dazed:

I count downwards from however many lefts I am running from in order to help the rhythm and consistency of my jump. That way when I am at "4" or at "2" my body position is the exact same no matter if I am coming from a 7L runway or a 9L runway. My goal is to have the pole at about 45 degrees by the time I am 8 steps (4L) out. From there I start the active pole drop in order for the pole to be parallel at 4 steps prepare for the plant.

grandevaulter wrote:I'd be glad to meet with you and go over proven and effective drills that were used by Bubka and many of the other Russian vaulters.

I appreciate the offer to meet with me, but I do not think that will be necessary. I have seen the BTB2 dvd but do not have the book. Maybe I will ask for it for Christmas :)

You're a very good listener - much better than my first impression of you - based on your original snotty reply to GV (which he forgave you for). :D

I will take that as a compliment! Thank you haha
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KirkB
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Re: Striding Out at Takeoff

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:57 pm

coachstark wrote: ... do you count your steps during your approach run?

From the videos, it doesn't look like you start to drop the pole consistently at the same spot. The pole drop tempo should increase as your approach run increases. So, if you do count your steps, make sure you start to move your hands at the same point each attempt. I coach the three C's.... Consistent, Confident and Comfortable.... try to develop these as you do 100s of approach runs.

All good advice in my book! :yes:

coachstark wrote: Depth perception is not the vaulters friend as you approach the pit. Each of my vaulters struggles with their safety instinct that they need to be closer to the mat when taking off. If you are Consistent, Confident and Comfortable with your approach run, vision is less of an importance and that safety instinct with your depth perception causing you to reach closer to the box starts to become eliminated.

Another good point! :yes:

I might comment on this some more at a later date or in a separate thread, since this might be a more advanced topic than the rest of this post. But I don't want to stray too far from answering the original, basic question asked by Burnham.

coachstark wrote: ... another drill that seems to help with your approach run and limit you to reach on your pen [penultimate step] would be to practice with mini hurdles. This makes sure you don't cheat yourself on your knee drive during your run with a neutral posture and your feet contacting underneath your hips. If you do cheat yourself on your run, its most likely that you will clip the hurdles. The youtube clip below should bring good guidance on some of the drills mentioned.

Yet another good point. :yes:

I have personally not done any hurdle drills, nor have I coached any vaulters to do them. But that doesn't mean that they're not good drills in my book. I just personally wasn't a very good hurdler, so I shied away from them. Probably to my detriment.


I like ALMOST all the drills in this vid.

There were only 2 parts that I didn't like:

1. The lifting up again (after lowering) the pole in the same cycle of the pole carry drills.

My preference is to drop the pole completely; then start the next cycle afresh. Reason: lifting the pole up isn't anything that must be learned (it's not a vault part); and I think it just introduces bad habits. I think they demo that just to show multiple cycles of pole-dropping in the same "run", but I don't think there's much justification to do this just to save time. I think it's better to focus on one pole-dropping cycle at a time, stop; then on to the next cycle. (I know this isn't your vid, Coach Stark, but just sayin'.)

2. The tight grip of the male vaulter's upper hand.

I prefer the open grip of the top hand as demonstrated by the female vaulter. It allows you to run more relaxed.

Burnham, the reason for this preference relates directly to your "bobbing the hands and arms too much" flaw.

You will find that the open grip makes your shoulders less tight and more of a natural (non-awkward) posture, thus you can run with your hands and the pole more controlled (but still quite relaxed). This will hopefully result in a more controlled plant and a more consistent penultimate step (less over-striding).

You see now how every vault part is related to every upstream vault part?

Kirk
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Re: Striding Out at Takeoff

Unread postby burnhamj » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:09 am

KirkB wrote:You see now how every vault part is related to every upstream vault part?

As my high school coach would say, "the vault is sequential, that's why it goes approach, plant, takeoff". I have always maintained the mentality that approach is the most important aspect of the vault (it comes first). Part of the reason my top end lacks (understatement) haha
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KirkB
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Re: Striding Out at Takeoff

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:37 am

grandevaulter wrote:
coachstark wrote:do you count your steps during your approach run?

Why? :eek:

coachstark wrote: So, if you do count your steps, make sure you start to move your hands at the same point each attempt.

When? :dazed:

I don't understand your dismay at Coach Stark's advice, GV.

I think he properly noted that beginners count steps; intermediates count them when they're having difficulties with the consistency of their run and/or plant; and elites rarely count them - they just "feel" the tempo of their steps as they approach the box.

Burnham clearly falls into the 2nd (intermediate) category, so it's sound advice.

grandevaulter wrote:
coachstark wrote:Depth perception is not the vaulters friend as you approach the pit. Each of my vaulters struggles with their safety instinct that they need to be closer to the mat when taking off. If you are Consistent, Confident and Comfortable with your approach run, vision is less of an importance and that safety instinct with your depth perception causing you to reach closer to the box starts to become eliminated.

Burnham, do not read the above, I repeat, "Do not read it". There is a blind girl in Texas that is a good jumper. If you do the drills that I prescribe, you can do this blind folded and hit your take off mark.

Again, Coach Stark's advice is good - even if it's not exactly how you would word it.

He has actually hit on [what I consider to be] the fundamental reason why vaulters that take off under take off under.

I see no reason for Burnham (or any other vaulter or coach) not to take Coach Stark's advice into consideration.

Don't get me wrong - I like your advice to Burnham too - I like all your drills; and I agree that doing them will [eventually - after an infinite number of repetitions] allow your vaulters to "do them blindfolded" (I know you're exaggerating, and so am I.) :D

I would only reword it slightly, due to a couple very minor typos (which I've underlined):
... vision is less of an importance than safety instinct when your depth perception is causing you to reach closer to the box ...

In other words, as your technique improves, you will get more of a "feel" for when your steps are on - rather than relying on your eyes to see the box and adjust your steps according to what your eyes see. It's those damn, pesky EYES that are giving you self-doubts about whether the vault will be successful or not! :idea: This is why vaulters over-stride, and this is why vaulters balk and bail (stop the continuation of an otherwise good vault attempt, thus aborting a vault at the last second).

And when I say "feel", I also mean a rather automatic/non-cognizant adjustment made by your brain and body, without hardly thinking about it (and without relying on your eyes alone), regarding the "tempo" or "timing" of the vault.

After thousands of drills and thousands of vaults, your brain and resultant bodily actions will become more and more automatic.

grandevaulter wrote: The University of Greece vid is O.K. with the exception of the angle (high) of the pole carry during most of the basic drills. The run, plant and jump drill is one move short of completing what it is intended for. "JUMP UP". The guinea pig make a week jump with her head down, drops the right leg and goes limp.

I'm not sure why you say that a high pole carry is a bad thing. I personally like it, and it's a la Bubka (and a la BTB2), so you should like it too. :confused:

I don't see too much wrong with NOT jumping up at the end of each drill cycle. After all, it's just a drill, isolating a specific vault part. By isolating the run and plant (and not jumping), the vaulter focuses on what's important (re focusing on a particular run or plant flaw). ANOTHER drill is to add a JUMP to the drill, and I like that drill too (I did both drills). But that's not the atomic unit of the drill. It requires putting three vault parts together in sequence (run/plant/jump), which should only be done once the isolated 2-part run/plant drill is working well enough to move to the more advanced 3-part run/plant/jump drill.

grandevaulter wrote: On counting steps. " The development of both technique and skill, progresses from a cognitive mode in beginners, through what is termed an associative stage, to an automatic mode with skilled performers. So while beginners have to think about each element of the movement pattern they are attempting to master, the elite performer can concentrate on just doing it without conscious thought. Indeed at this level, conscious thought will get in the way of perfect performance" (excerpt from; "From beginner to Bubka and Isinbayeva too! Second addition Alan G. Launder & John Gormley.
:yes:
Hmm ... sounds like something I might have said myself. :)

So your complaint to Coach Stark about his recommending to count steps is what ... ? :confused:

grandevaulter wrote: Burnham, there are a few separate chapters (BTB2) on the approach and a couple chapters on the plant for different levels. You are and should be to the "automatic mode" at this point. No need to count steps. I'd be glad to meet with you and go over proven and effective drills that were used by Bubka and many of the other Russian vaulters. 6 step plant drill with exact movements, and a 10 / 6 drill on changing increasing the frequency of your strides.

Burnham: Buy the book, or put it on your must have Xmas list! It will soon be out of print (may Altius rest in peace!) :rose:

Kirk
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Re: Striding Out at Takeoff

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:17 am

burnhamj wrote:I understand what both grandevaulter and coachstark are coming from. I have always been taught to count during my approach and I will continue to always count. Yes, it may get in the way of the mentality of the jump, however there are many more important parts of my jump that take higher priority in learning. I am just a collegiate vaulter and if I ever become professional, maybe I will work on it haha

Read Agapits "Continuous chain of energy paper" No counting, no thinking. On Dec. 5 four of my young vaulters will be at your indoor meet, you'll see Petrov/Bubka technical model jumpers that I've coached from the ground up. They don't count. Occasionally they may be under, but rarely.


coachstark wrote: Each of my vaulters struggles with their safety instinct that they need to be closer to the mat when taking off.

None of my vaulters suffer or are afflicted with this syndrome.

KirkB wrote:I don't understand your dismay at Coach Stark's advice, GV.
I think he properly noted that beginners count steps; intermediates count them when they're having difficulties with the consistency of their run and/or plant; and elites rarely count them - they just "feel" the tempo of their steps as they approach the box.

Burnham clearly falls into the 2nd (intermediate) category, so it's sound advice.

Where did he categorize the levels. A Sophomore in college at a school with GVSU's prestige in track and field is not an intermediate.


KirkB wrote:He has actually hit on [what I consider to be] the fundamental reason why vaulters that take off under take off under

Wrong, did Bubka take off under because he was afraid of being too far away from the pit?


coachstark wrote:So, if you do count your steps, make sure you start to move your hands at the same point each attempt.

Give him a (Burnham ) a starting point. The same point is vague.


KirkB wrote:I'm not sure why you say that a high pole carry is a bad thing. I personally like it, and it's a la Bubka (and a la BTB2), so you should like it too.

You will not see anyone doing low step drills with a starting position pole carry Kirk. There is not purpose to do any running drill with a starting position pole carry, the pole will only be in that highest position for two steps. The balance of the run there will be torque on the muscular and skeletal system. That is where the tire hits the road.


KirkB wrote:So your complaint to Coach Stark about his recommending to count steps is what ... ?

Here we go. Burnham says he does count his steps and is fishing around the internet for advice because he is having problems with his approach/plant and take off. Maybe it's time he crank up the drills that I gave him and see how it works. Most won't put in the time and do the work that I've outlined. If they do, they'll have success. As in Agapits "Continuous Chain" or Altius and PVstudent's book. Counting, cues and needles thoughts have no place on the approach or the vault.

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Re: Striding Out at Takeoff

Unread postby coachstark » Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:22 pm

Every coach will have their opinion on counting steps or not. I personally believe in it and has brought a lot of success for my program.

Its not just a simple process of counting (I don't believe in counting up or down in #'s however in phases) but how to count and the reason why. - for a future topic

Charlotte Brown is the name of the blind vaulter you referenced in your reply to mine. She is a role model to the sport and has sparked my original insight on the approach run and starting to do research on the depth perception problem. From the link below you will notice around 1:23 in the video it will discuss how she makes her way down the runway by counting her steps.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZLMp3rTHIM

Kirk, I look forward to your remarks in more detail on the depth perception you mentioned earlier. Possibly a new topic?

Burnham, if you have the ability, film each rep of drills and even full approach runs. Sometimes you cannot identify issues by "feel". You will be surprised on what you might find on film! Keep us posted on your progress! Remember your ability is limitless! Stay positive and confident!

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Re: Striding Out at Takeoff

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:34 pm

grandevaulter wrote:
KirkB wrote:I don't understand your dismay at Coach Stark's advice, GV.
I think he properly noted that beginners count steps; intermediates count them when they're having difficulties with the consistency of their run and/or plant; and elites rarely count them - they just "feel" the tempo of their steps as they approach the box.

Burnham clearly falls into the 2nd (intermediate) category, so it's sound advice.

Where did he categorize the levels? A Sophomore in college at a school with GVSU's prestige in track and field is not an intermediate.

Coach Stark did not specifically peg Burnham as an intermediate. That's my doing. I was paraphrasing Stark.

Coach Stark, please clarify if my paraphrasing was not what you meant to say. I know the exact words you said. But what exactly did you mean, and was I close to paraphrasing your meaning?

Sorry, but a 14-6 vaulter is not an elite - he's an intermediate. But I believe wise beyond his years (or in other words, with what he knows already, he should soon be clearing much higher than 14-6.

I'm not going by how prestigious GVSU is, or what year of college he's in. I'm going by his PR, as stated in his PVP profile. That's all that matters, when you categorize a vaulter as beginner, intermediate or advanced (elite). He has the potential to become an elite, but heightwise, he still has a couple of feet to go. :idea:

grandevaulter wrote:
KirkB wrote:He has actually hit on [what I consider to be] the fundamental reason why vaulters that take off under take off under

Wrong, did Bubka take off under because he was afraid of being too far away from the pit?

No, Bubka did not take off because he was afraid of being to far out. I was referring to the umpteen HS and college vaulters that cannot seem to get their steps out far enough. Consequently, they're under, and get picked off the ground by the pole before they get a chance to JUMP. For a deeper understanding of WHY vaulters do this (even though they really, really want to kick the habit), you have to look at the psychology of the vaulter. In this respect, he's his own worse enemy. Enough said for now.

Open up a separate topic, and we'll toss this idea around. I like Stark's point.

grandevaulter wrote:
KirkB wrote:I'm not sure why you say that a high pole carry is a bad thing. I personally like it, and it's a la Bubka (and a la BTB2), so you should like it too.

You will not see anyone doing low step drills with a starting position pole carry Kirk.

Hmm... wasn't that what I just saw on that vid? :confused:

grandevaulter wrote: There is no purpose to do any running drill with a starting position pole carry, the pole will only be in that highest position for two steps. The balance of the run there will be torque on the muscular and skeletal system. That is where the tire hits the road.

It's just a drill, GV. It's just a drill.

The purpose of the drill is to focus on getting a good even tempo in your run. You could do this drill without the pole (as I often have), but the next step up from that is to do it while holding the pole (as I often have). Don't knock it until you try it.

It's being held straight up and down so that the vaulter doesn't lean back (counter-balancing the pole) while doing the drill. That would distract the vaulter from focussing on the specific vault part that he's trying to improve.

Nothing less, nothing more.

It's just a drill.

Agreed that in a REAL vault, there's torque from the pole, causing other complications in the run. The drill wasn't trying to solve those issues. It was only striving to get a good tempo / cadence in the run - with the ultimate purpose of having a more consistent stride length on all steps, including that pesky penultimate step, which is where Burnham needs to improve his cadence.

But first things first, so first get the cadence of the run working, then as a subsequent step leading up to a real vault, carry it like your really would (as you say), and eventually keep adding additional things to the drill until it becomes a full vault.

I don't think I need to tell you that you need to break down the faulty parts of your vault to its component parts; work on them individually and then progressively build them back up to a full sequence of fluid, overlapping vault parts.

It's just a drill.

In a real vault, you would never do those low stutter steps, or high ostrich steps. Instead, you should run like a sprinter - except carry the pole at the same time. But that doesn't mean that those drills aren't good ones, just because it's not a perfect simulation of a real vault run.

It's just a drill, GV. It's just a drill.

Kirk
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