Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Decamouse » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:45 pm

PVDaddy --- did your read 3PO post -- I see the foot as you describe it - know how the pole moves - described some of the why earlier -- why is it none of the upper level coaches every talk about it in terms likes this - it would help if the terms were applied correctly or we had a cheat sheet to apply all of them. If you review/video enough vaults and are concerned with the path of the top hand (you are when you are looking at shortening of the chord and pole bend) - you would know there is not a circular movement of the top hand - and if you would plot the movement of the center point of the sail (part of the pole) you would also know it is not a circular movement -- thus no centripetal force -

The force the pole can generate is more aligned with the a chord line drawn from the pole tip in the box to the vaulters top hand -- and is not a centripetal force

Again if you read 3PO's post he outlines why a vaulter might drift and try and correct -- you are looking for something no one else has discovered -- not matter how many times you say how can you not see it - the only thing I can see is I do not agree with you opinion of what is happening.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:47 pm

Seeing that I'm in a good mood and throwing out free Pearls today. Hope you don't act like swine anymore!

This is NOT the only place that the centripetal force of the rotating (Circular rotation) pole effects the swing path of the vaulter. This force is applied to the vaulter throughout most of the entire swing and effect the vaulters swing path the entire time the pole is rotating. I do not know at what time the pole reaches it fastest rotation, but, would say it is during this time it has the largest impact on the vaulters swing path. I suspect it occurs around the time the vaulters feet past the pole as the vaulter breaks at the hips into rockback. I would say that it is at this point that the angle of the vaulters body in relation to the runway reaches maximum differences for most vaulters.

Is it possible Lavellenie makes better use of Physics here by a greater correction of his swing path to the right side of the pole and as a result puts more energy in and gets more energy out of the pole?

This is only a question?! I don't think a question requires insults and personal attacks. :)
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:49 pm

Decamous:
why is it none of the upper level coaches every talk about it in terms likes this


Why is it they don't talk about a lot of things and educate us more? They sure like to promote themselves and their book though don't they!
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:17 pm

RL appears to "Cover the pole" at what appears to be quicker that SB. There is nothing radical about the pole rotating in the box or RL "pulling his knees in" as he covers the pole and the angle ( which changes from one vault to the next). There is more than one way to "skin a cat". It appears to me that RL's technique is more instinctive and SB's ingrained through the Soviet vault mill. So somebody hurry up and ask RL if he aligns his hips to correct his swing path. :confused:

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Decamouse » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:20 pm

And you insist it is centripetal force - I disagree with that statement - just like the terms "Counter side swing" -- "counter thrust bend" -- please explain them in terms I can understand because they never came up in any course or seminars I ever took or sat in on. Centripetal force, yes that was covered and my opinion is it does not apply here.

Interesting you keep going back to certain people and a book ( mmm could it by our folks from down under -- also as far as I know Greg Hull never sold a book on this site - I know Steve Rippon never has - I mentioned them earlier as coaches I listen to and learn from every chance I get to sit down with them) There is a world outside this board. There are many a fine coach that is teaching pole vault fundamentals and technical points of the vault. So they must need to be educated or choose not to use terms you do.

I have read B2B - have the video and gave it to my nephew who is coaching. Never meet the authors in person. Obviously the Jan Johnson's of the world need to get their wording of what happens in the vault updated --

If this makes me a swine in your words - oh well
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 3:49 pm

Decamouse:
And you insist it is centripetal force - I disagree with that statement - just like the terms "Counter side swing" -- "counter thrust bend" -- please explain them in terms I can understand because they never came up in any course or seminars I ever took or sat in on. Centripetal force, yes that was covered and my opinion is it does not apply here.




Decamouse, the pole is rotating in a circle. As it does, why do you deny it has an ability to generate a centripetal force and that a reactive centrifugal force is applied to the vaulters body? Please answer this for me? You made the statement that it does not. On what basis are you making that statement? I am making that statement (I believe for the first time here?) based on my understanding of Physics and furthermore based on what I see as Physical evidence of it occurring. I have pointed out an early example of this force at frame 3:19. Do you have a better explanation for the twisting of Lavellenies spine and the rightward (outward circular) swing of his trail leg here? If so please state the source of that force?


When I used the terms "Counter side swing" -- "counter thrust bend" it was in the form of and part of a question not a statement! Admittedly, these were terms that I chose in my attempt to describe the question? What I meant by "Counter side swing" were the actions I believe Lavellenie applies to counter the effect of the poles centripetal force and its effect on swing path. In other words I believe he swings his feet to the right to counter this effect and place his swing path more perpendicular to the runway. My question is, is it possible that this action (that I believe is more severe then Bubka's) creates more pole bend (What I meant by counter thrust bend) and stores more energy at the top? I'm not sure? Its only a question?
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Decamouse » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:32 pm

PVDAddy - fair is fair you say the pole rotates in a circle and generates centripetal force - show me how the COM of the pole relative to its chord is rotating in a circular motion during vault - I will put together a brief stating why in my opinion it does not

Using the standby - because look at frame at 3:19 - does not show the COM of the pole moving in a circular path relative to the chord from the vaulters top hand and the pole tip -

And simply saying it happens in your opinion does not make it reality - there must be video that shows it rotating in a circle - not merely swinging to the side as the vaulter rotates the chord to the vertical - because if the chord is rotating up to catch up with the com relative to the zero point (back of box) vault plane - the pole is not swinging around the vaulter
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby altius » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:24 pm

Decamous:
"why is it none of the upper level coaches every talk about it in terms likes this"

PVDaddy
"Why is it they don't talk about a lot of things and educate us more? They sure like to promote themselves and their book though don't they!"

Not sure how many folk have written a book on pole vaulting - so clearly PVDaddy must be referring to me as an "upper level coach". That makes me so proud to think that a great theoretician like him sees me as an "upper level coach". As to educating you - I suspect that would be impossible - because you already know it all and are unlikely to take notice of what John Wooden had to say on this topic!

Strangely enough most intelligent folk would see a 300 page book and an accompanying DVD as an attempt to educate people. In fact many coaches from around the world have sent me letters thanking me for producing it. In fact if you bother to read the post of other contributors here, you will find that they attribute the improvement of their athletes to employing the ideas and methods suggested in BTB. Then some readers would see the post I put up in both the intermediate and beginners sections, that shows a clip of a 12 year old girl - who in the early phases looks very much like a PB vaulter. Here I am trying to confirm that the process of clarification and simplification we follow here actually helps youngsters to improve rapidly. But I don't believe you have looked at that - dealing as you are with all of the esoteric aspects of theory that will never have an impact on the performance of any pole vaulters - male or female.

Finally if you tracked back through PVP for several years you will find that I played a major role in clarifying many of the issues - including the concept of the free take off - that arose as coaches tried to understand the implications of the PB model. But as an upstart you would have missed all of that.
Last edited by altius on Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVstudent » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:14 pm

Oh for heaven's sake!

Despite some clear definitions having being put into this "crazy circus" some readers are being hoodwinked by PVdaddy's confusions and his arcane physics (of the sort that claims it can turn lead into gold)!

Centripetal force can only exist so long as the pole vaulter exerts centripetal force by SWINGING about their attachment to the pole and until such time that the angular momentum thus created ceases to exist. This then leaves only the weight of the vaulter to act on the pole when vaulter and pole angular momentum is ZERO.

Simple message is:

Even thought the COM path of the vaulter is curvilinear the fact is that so long as the vaulter is swinging with power (torque x angular velocity) at any instant during the swing then the total System (vaulter +pole) COM is being driven (in the sense of a nail being driven by the impulse given to it by the hammer not driven in the sense of "steering") forward by the horizontal component whilst being elevated in the upward direction by the vertical components of the TANGENTIAL FORCE induced TORQUE created by the muscular WORK of the vaulter's SWING.

The greater the magnitude of the angular momentum of the vaulter's swing about the transverse axis through the total system COM the greater will be the stability of the vaulter's pathway direction in the forward plane (sagittal) of total system motion (3-D vector resultant cross product verifies this conclusion).
The higher the magnitude of the angular momentum in the same direction about the transverse axis the less possibility exists for deviation out of, or away from the primary plane of the vaulters swing.

No surprises therefore that successful practitioner coaches recognise the "esoteric nonsense" being hawked by PVdaddy to be no more than "snake-oil" adding to smearing of the truth even further behind the smoke and mirrors of his technical analyses of pole vault technique.

My simple message is in summary, Great pole vaulters are great brachiating swingers!

Brachiation in pole vault.jpg
Brachiation in pole vault.jpg (64.29 KiB) Viewed 8621 times


Bubka action sequence role of the swing leg tangential force.jpg
Bubka action sequence role of the swing leg tangential force.jpg (75.19 KiB) Viewed 8621 times


Primary advantages of the flexible composite materials pole in modern pole vault.jpg
Primary advantages of the flexible composite materials pole in modern pole vault.jpg (81.93 KiB) Viewed 8621 times


The final summary diagram shows clearly ,I hope, that in addition to the obvious advantages due to pole flexibility, that the curvilinear pathway increases both the distance and potential time during which the vaulter can perform useful mechanical work and still produce pendular motion in which the moment of inertia of the pendulum with respect to vaulter grip and pole tip in the box are continuously changing.

I couldn't help myself from making this contribution. Apologies to all concerned. I could not let this recent GIGO go by without comment.

It is my hope this might help put the thread back on track. In my heart I know that the ears my message is intended to reach will remain permanently deaf.

When will PVdaddy realise that he really must, in all good faith, exercise some restraint and acknowledge that he is not doing the world of pole vaulting technique any good and that what he is casting to us all is highly toxic non nutritional garbage!

PVdaddy still shows no sign of putting up the evidence I asked for as to his expertise to be able make the dogma he propounds worthy of any notice!
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:05 am

PVstudent, two ships passing in the night. Your talking about centripetal force created by the VAULTERS rotation and I'm CURRENTLY discussing the centripetal force created by the POLE in its counterclockwise rotation! You have yet to even address this question I posed to you? So again PVstudent, please explain for us all what are/is the source of the force that is causing the counterclockwise twisting of lavellenies spine, hips and trail leg here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I#t=3m19s

I am now questioning whether you ever have ever even considered the centrifugal forces it exert on the vaulter and the vaulters swing path!? How about you enter this discussion with that in mind and provide your input, if you want to show us your superior understanding of the Physics of the vault?

More to follow,with hopefully visuals . Who knows PVstudent, perhaps there's even a pearl in this, for an expert like you?
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby altius » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:22 am

Pearls before swine old son. Lets produce another book and really get pvdaddy fired up! ;)
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:58 am

Altius, why was this not addressed in your original book? Why was not the benefit of re-extending the bottom arm to lower the vaulters COG mentioned? You, Kirk and others claim this to be a pull. Why were you unable to clearly define and recognize the best timing of the pull in an ideal vault? Why was not the benefit of a Gymnast foot tap at the bottom of the swing mentioned. Why did you not go into greater detail to promote the benefit of an inversion beyond vertical and describe how/why it placed the vaulter in a better position to receive more energy through the vaulters COG ie. top arm and a predetermined superior vertical position in flyaway? These and many others (with more to follow) are all new concepts that I have largely promoted here more then anyone else? Yet you two claim I am the one who brings nothing new of value here? LOL :D

Are you now going to include (steal) all these new concepts from me and include them in your new book? You have said on many occasions I should try to write a book.
As you know I (as a sold out Petrovite) have identified that I believe Lavellenies method is more efficient and radically different then Bubka's. If I also write this book is it ok with you I title it" beginner to Lavellenie?" ;)
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