Mid Mark Chart

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby baggettpv » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:38 am

So with the Curriculum of teaching the skills the idea I come up with is what comes first, Running mechancs, the proper placing of the feet while teaching the runup or the pole carry and pole plant. I teach the running mechanics during warmup, the pole carry plant next and the plant/takeoff third. Yes I do use mid mark checks but jut for the transition into the plant for the beginners.

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:31 am

good morning

everything you just said is valid but we/you are talking about two different things.

you are using the "mark" as a "cue"... to drop the pole .. do you also use it as an accuracy mark? If so how do you determine the correct mark for each vaulter?

my chart is/was created as an "accuracy" and speed chart based on speed to move a corresponding grip..

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby Barto » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:54 am

Very difficult to separate acceleration mechanics from pole drop mechanics from takeoff mechanics. They are all essentially parts of the same thing. Each one has the ability to affect the other two in very significant ways. We work both forward and backward from takeoff to start and start to takeoff.

One factor to always consider is efficiency of pole drop and is it assisting or hindering maximal takeoff velocity. Pole drop WILL affect mid-mark.
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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Fri Oct 09, 2009 11:42 am

Pole drop WILL affect mid-mark.



And vice versa……..

I think we all agree that the vault starts with the first step and is a chain… each action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The mid-mark will affect pole drop..

and speed.. and posture... and the "jump"(penultimate) ...and the plant...

I continually saw “over striding” affect the pole drop, pole carry, posture and takeoff of two of our greatest American vaulters, one male and one female..

The only reason I have not “given” in to those that say you have to automatically and immediately move your “MID” out based on your physical height, without even trying the chart first, is because the MAJOR issue we have on the run is over striding!! That is also the major issue with saftey and with vaulters getting hurt and or killed.

My chart is as good as or better than the 20/20 drill. Same purpose but more specific to you and your approach run. I haven’t seen all but I have seen some of Rick’s or Alan’s “drills” for running and speed, they are all good and working with the chart will only complement any speed drill or training you can do.

The math later

dj

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:16 pm

hey

http://www.sprintic.com/articles/the_ho ... _training/

not sure if i shared this... the Harvard study goes back many years, i couldn't find my copy (didn't really look) thought the ones that really want to know "speed' could check it out...

this needs to happen with or without a pole... Loren Seagrave helped Dwight Phillips improve his speed and trim his weight.... result... WC

i know that john smith, loren seagrave, vince anderson, brooks johnson all "get it" and coach speed from this perspective.......

dj

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dougb » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:20 pm

Thank you dj

Speed and the proper run are the limiting factors in the equation.
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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:02 pm

good morning,

thanks Doug...

but there still seems to be some 'confusion" based on a post in the Beginning forum under 4 step “mid”..

I’m not sure if “concrete” means rigid in that I did not or have not considered there is no Plus or minus margins in the numbers.. there are “margins’ because of numerous human factors.. speed, technique and yes the takeoff will vary based on physical reach height.

I never want or wanted any of you or your vaulters to take off under or a foot out. I want everyone to take off “out”, “free” with the pole high or whatever term you consider perfect…

My chart is a “MID” (6 stride check point) to GRIP correlation. Takeoff point is not a factor. Don’t look at the chart for that number. That point is solely determined by you, your coach and your physical characteristics, and philosophy on the take off position.

I have said numerous times the takeoff points listed on the chart is an “average” and is of no consequence to the speed needed to move a curtain grip.

This was created from a formula and not from a “collection of data”. Of course I had to compare some ‘empirical’ data to form a hypotheses and create the formula. This chart has been “checked” for 30 years and I see no reason to “do more study” or review my numbers other than accept practical “feed back” as to it’s validity.

Much of what was said on that thread confirmed (posture, frequency,etc) what is accomplished with the chart.

Two vaulters of different heights will have to takeoff at a different distance from the box if they hit “exactly” the same mid and are gripping the same on the pole. But both CAN have the same speed. It’s just that the frequencies are slightly different.

The math I did for Becca’s one foot difference at the takeoff with the same mid, showed that to run 7.1 meters per second with a curtain “mid” / 6 steps took 1.48 seconds. Shorten that distance by one foot at the takeoff but with the same “mid”/ 6 steps, the shorter vaulter would have to cover their distance in 1.44 seconds compared to 1.48 seconds to have 7.1 mps.

I think every vaulter will have a problem of being within .04 seconds timed over 6 strides on every one of their runs down the runway…

When you add in some vaulters can “out jump” the chart, have more height above grip.. etc..

My chart is a (6 step chart) “MID” to grip ratio/correlation… and since it is stride length and frequency based it helps you improve posture, your running technique, pole drop rhythm (if your grip and pole carry positions are correct) and allows you to increase the frequency and have a correct takeoff and penultimate (jump impulse) action.

What more could you ask of any “training” aid ever devised.


dj

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:04 am

Hey DJ, just like to say that as I am progressing my run back the closer my mid becomes to matching your chart.... Maybe short run vaults the acceleration pattern is different.
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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:05 pm

PVP “MID”

Thanks Kyle for your post.

Yes, I feel the WAY we “try” to accelerate from a short run is different and that difference is what has made it difficult for many vaulters to transition from a short run to a long run, where they could potentially jump higher or challenge the world records.

If a short run vault session has a “mid” further out than something “close” to my charts grip to “mid’ ratio (I feel) creates over striding. What happens is the vaulter engages the hips and “pushes”, and will reach, push, pull and change the correct dynamic for speed and ”posture” for takeoff.

When Petrov says that the last 5 to 6 steps should be of equal length and at a higher frequency, he has a “purpose” that is more than just speed. Same length and increased frequency does much more than just speed. The “process” shifts the hips into the correct pelvic alignment to actually takeoff properly or the ability to even have a free takeoff.

I am sure Petrov is fully aware of the “physics’ involved with this ‘move’.. the first scientific article I saw on this “process” came from Russia, in the 60’s and was done on the long jump approach run. As a world class coach I’m sure Petrov has seen and studied these works and has used the “thinking’ with every vaulter he has coached.

Longer, slow strides will mean the athlete has way to much ground “contact time” (or they are bouncing up and down to much) per stride, which will mean the steps are hitting to far in front of the body mass, the hips are engaged (and can’t go to the pelvis neutral position which would allow for the correct “free” takeoff) are being "forced" to pull and then push the body over that contact point before force can be created forward. This not only creates the wrong action for “speed” but uses the muscles incorrectly with a good possibility of injury.

The short of the matter is this.. look at Isi’s run on her sand vault. Watch how she “sets up” the run from the first step. She very deliberately “drives’/pushes the body mass forward and strikes the ground UNDER the body on the ball of the foot. I have no doubts that Petrov teaches or emphasis the correct and only way to do this so that correct speed and posture is obtained by takeoff.

Now, she still took off “slightly” under… and it would be very beneficial to see what progression Petrov took after this jump to “correct” or to teach to the points he was trying to make. anyone have thatvideo?? Some might think he would move the run back slightly!!? to get her takeoff out... But I don’t think he would do that… I think what he correctly would do is ask Isi to “get her feet down” quicker over the last 2/3 steps and move her chest a little forward over her hips on the last couple of steps.. posture, penultimate and xtended high plant.

At this point if he asked her to move back, she would more than likely stretch more and takeoff farther under.

By the way I think this is the way we all should run on short run vaults.. because it will emphasize the way we should run on our long run.. posture and all..

Kyle could I ask you to try something for me…??

What is your best short run steps, 10 (5 lefts) or 12 (6lefts)?? And the best grip for those steps? just 5 or 6 not both...

I would like to give you a drill that might help your short run sessions.

dj

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:14 pm

My problem when I was using the shorter runs is that the mid on your chart was too far out, as I am moving back it is getting closer. For example from 4lefts (8strides) for my 13'7 grip 44ft was were I needed to be to takeoff on, 45'6 was way to far out.
I used to have a skip at the beginning of my run, and I have taken that out. So all the data I can give you is from my 3left, 4left, &5left runs I will be moving to 6lefts in December.

As of now
4lefts grip 13'8, mid- 44'6ish, takeoff 11ft, cleared 14'10 bar......
5lefts grip so far grip 13'11, mid 46'6, takeoff 11'4 cleared 15'6.....
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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby VaultPurple » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:13 pm

The shortest Ive had the mid work for is 6 lefts, and it is spot on for that and back. My guess with your shorter runs you are able to really concentrate on having a really fast turn over and you can get your feet into a good position to really jump up onto of the pole. Because of this you are able to get on larger grips than the chart predicts because other parts of your vault are better.

From what I have learned from the chart, it is never that bad to have your mid shorter than what the chart says (as long as you can get that grip into the pit safely). You just don't want your mid to be longer than what the chart says because you are probably over striding if that ever happens.

But you would be amazed at how well of a teaching tool the mid mark can be for teaching pole vaulting. We have two decathleats that are learning how to vault. So the coach just marked where there last 3 lefts go with chalk on the track, and they kind of jog into it and then hit all of the marks. One of the guys can jog at what looks like a really slow pace while gripping 12' and jumps right up to vertical and lands in the coaches box, I really do not think I have ever seen anyone jump up so high while pole vaulting!

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Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:39 am

Just another shout out to the idea of using mid marks...

I recently spoke with a coach who saw Isinbayeva jump a number of times this summer. She usually hit within a few inches of a certain mid.

At the World Championships, she was hitting over a foot out from that mid. Petrov doesn't use mids and did not adjust for this. Result = NH


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