Lavillenie vs Bubka

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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KirkB
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Feb 18, 2014 1:35 am

So maybe now we should all be calling RL a tuck/tapper? :confused:

I sure hope not! :no:

Once RL begins to tuck, the rest of their respective techniques are so vastly different that we need not even go there! :idea:

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:16 am

What former World record holder Bubka and New World Record holder Lavellenie BOTH have in common is a great Tap at the top of their vault! However, they both achieve it in different ways.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby grandevaulter » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:13 pm

The Petrov Bubka model worked well for Markov, Tarasov, Isenbayeva and Feofanova to name a few. Just a slight variation of this topic. No need to complicate things.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby dj » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:41 pm

Compare SB to RL

I will take an unbiased, simple approach.. and compare the three phases, as I see them.
(just as I have previous with Tim Mack's best vaults.. in my opinion T-Mack maximized each "phase", Run – Plant – Swing, based on his speed, as any vaulter in history)
One and two together…… Run/Pole Drop and Plant/takeoff.

I think very, very similar. Fast run.. the drop is on time.. the plant/takeoff "out" with slight impulse.

This constitutes 80% of the vault…

The swing.. Bubka more of a single leg swing, less tuck (less shorting of the bodies rotation around the shoulder radius) , swing total swing speed is more than likely the same. Maybe 1.45/1.47 ish RL may be at 1.50… this is from the toe leaving the runway to their max COM height above the bar. Tim Mack was the same as Bubka's 1.45 ish

The big difference, only difference, seems to be the "tuck"… SO let's look at it this way.

I'm reasonably curtain that both vaulters are applying exactly the same amount of force in the same amount of time… Physics again should bare this out..

How they do it is this…. Equate their swings to that of a Boxer… a boxers punch.. a short "jab" at a very high speed (the speed of the tuck) can apply the same amount of "force", "BAM" as a full punch at slightly less speed.

So neither is wrong… to improve the long swing you would have to swing faster or swing the same speed with a higher grip.. to improve the "tuck" swing you grip higher and swing as fast or faster.

So.. it's really not the "tuck and shoot" or the longer body swing that is the issue… the issue is how to "invert" and keep continuous force on the pole so your exit is vertical and up/off the pole..

dj

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby Wan » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:09 pm

An interesting article about basic facts (speed, lever, stifness...) and comparaison betwen RL, SB and many others.
http://vazel.blog.lemonde.fr/2014/02/17/comment-lavillenie-a-depasse-les-poids-lourds-de-la-perche/
(no time to traduce it at the moment... Canag, if you could... ;))

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby cdmilton » Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:44 pm

Wan wrote:An interesting article about basic facts (speed, lever, stifness...) and comparaison betwen RL, SB and many others.
http://vazel.blog.lemonde.fr/2014/02/17/comment-lavillenie-a-depasse-les-poids-lourds-de-la-perche/
(no time to traduce it at the moment... Canag, if you could... ;))



From Google Translate:

How Lavillenie exceeded heavyweight perch
Strobe world record of Lavillenie
Strobe world record of Lavillenie
By Bringing the world record of 16 pole 6 m Saturday in Donetsk, Lavillenie Dominates athletes the qualities That Were Considered more favorable performance. Comparison to Illustrate the physical and technical characteristics of the tallest men in the world:

6 pole vaulters best in history

At 27 Lavillenie mature icts for discipline, if one factotum believes the age of the best pole vaulters, established Their record-have. He still HAS Many years ahead of him if he follows the footsteps of Bubka Have you crossed the last 6 meters to 33 years in 1997, the year of His last world title.

6 m 16 - Lavillenie (FRA) Donetsk (en) 15 February 2014 to 27 years 6 m 15 - Sergei Bubka (UKR) Donetsk (in) 21 February 1993 to 29 years 6 m 06 - Steven Hooker (AUS) Boston (room) 7 February 2009 to 26 years 6 m 05 - Maksim Tarasov (RUS) Athens, 16 June 1999 to 28 years 6 m 05 - Dmitri Markov (RUS) Edmonton, August 9, 2001 to 26 years 6 m 04 - Brad Walker (USA) Eugene, June 8, 2008 to 26 years

Physical

Yes, Lavillenie HAS single template, goal this is just a reminder That there is no ideal morphotype for the pole vault. 1 Between 68 m and 66 kg American Greg Duplantis (5 m 80 in 1993) and 07 m 2 and 91 kg of Jeremy Scott (vice-champion of the United States with 5 m 75 in 2009), we find in all international measurements. The lightness of the French Gives it a clear advantage to rise into the air, while trucks can bend poles harder and better propulsion. Arm strength aussi helps, All which is why the bench press is an interesting exercise for the pole vault. Most pole vaulters Easily raise quintal. Lavillenie do not-have the capacity, All which makes sense for a featherweight. It compensates by icts speed sprint, Especially pole in hand, All which is an advantage for the run-up.

Size - mass - bench
1 m from 76 to 70 kg - 95 kg> Lavillenie
1 m from 83 to 80 kg - 130 kg> Bubka
1 m from 87 to 85 kg - 150 kg> Hooker
1 m from 94 to 81 kg - 120 kg> Tarasov
1 m from 81 to 80 kg - 137.5 kg> Markov
1 m from 88 to 86 kg - 120 kg> Walker

Their run-up

According To the IAAF Competition Rules (Rule 183.6), "the minimum length of the runway, Measured from the zero line Will Be 40 m and, When circumstances permit, to 45 m" . At icts back on December 21 in Aulnay-sous-Bois (5 m 93) Lavillenie HAD Merely 37 m with 16 steps. In general, it Needs 45 to 46 m for 20 strides. That He Had played tricks World Moscow last year, since the runway WAS limited to 43 m. In Donetsk, he fell from odd icts brands to 47 m. Not sure it can reproduce this scheme championships. Bubka lunging at 45 m with 20 steps. Brad Walker Merely 18 steps, Because to make 20, he Would Have to leave at 47 m 20 bumper ... The American sprint HAS not competed since high school, but felt he Would make a little less than 11 s to 100 m. Lavillenie indulges every year, and HAS His record set in 2001, 11 s 04. They are, HOWEVER, pole in hand, faster than Hooker, Have you ran 10 seconds 82. Bubka Has No official reference distance, goal Showed very fast in training: 6 s Manual 29 60 m. Something worth less than 10 s 50.

Distance - number of stride - maximum speed
47 m - 20 strides - 9.9 m / s> Lavillenie
45 m - 20 strides - 9.94 m / s> Bubka
43 m - 18 strides - 9.75 m / s> Hooker
? m - 18 strides - 9.75 m / s> Tarasov
41 m - 18 strides - 9.69 m / s> Markov
42.5 m - 18 strides - 9.9 m / s> Walker

Their perch

The Rule 183.11 leaves room for the imagination to the choice of tool to use to propel Themselves above the bar: "The pole May be made ​​of Any material or combination of materials and long-have and an arbitrary diameter, the goal area shoulds be smooth " . HOWEVER, there is a uniformity of equipment at the best pole vaulters. Adept poles 5 m 10 Lavillenie Gradually complied with the use of 5 m 20 as the best specialists, initial testing training in November 2011 after. For His record to 6 m 16 odd he managed to jump by Placing his hand over 3 cm away from the end of His pole. Such a rise has-been operated by Bubka. The index is the bending deformation of the rod fixed horizontally not a standard weight. The higher the index, the lower pole is hard and May restore the kinetic energy of the athlete. This season, more than 14 indexes Have Become too soft for Lavillenie, All which led him to choose to 13.8 Donetsk. It is this parameter Clermont That Will play to raise the bar higher odd.

Length - handle - bending index
5 m 5.20 m 17 to 13.8> Lavillenie
5 m 5.20 m 18 to 10.6> Bubka
5 m 5.20 m 11 to 11.1> Hooker
5 m 20.5 m from 10 to 11.2> Tarasov
5 m 20.05 m 07 to 12.0> Markov
5 m to 5.20 m 12 11.4> Walker

If Lavillenie Neither the biggest nor is The Strongest, nor the fastest, It Has an effective thesis compromised Between all qualities, coupled with other, less quantifiable Easily extraordinary agility and confidence.

Thank you to Alex Parnov (coach Dmitri Markov and Steven Hooker) and Dan Pfaff (Brad Walker and aussi Hooker) for helping me to accomplish achieve this compilation, based on the work of Vitaly Petrov (former coach Bubka).
Chris Milton

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby Wan » Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:11 pm

Thanks, but a Google's translation, I could do this in ten seconds too... but the result is horrible because French language is full of idioms (like English ! ;)) A robot can't do this.
For myself and doing this, I need more than one minute per line to translate (because my English is poor, but also because my French is rich and I don't want to distort, even misinterpret the original message). Furthermore, some of those accounts have already been translated from English to French (you can feel that being French, poor translation indeed sometimes, you "feel" the original message through weird expressions using French.) So, to translate them in the other way needs to keep English in your mind in order to try to keep being as close as you can from original ones.
I'll try to do this before tomorrow evening.
[End of off topic]

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:35 pm

Thanks, Wan. Could you also please credit the original author of this analysis? He went to a lot of work putting this together, so deserves some credit for his work.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:26 pm

It is amusing to read how the robots translate the French, but I look forward to reading Wan's translation as well :)

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby Wan » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:00 am

Here is a better translation (not claiming it's the best...) :
How Lavillenie surpassed heavyweight pole vaulters

In bringing the pole vault world record up to 6.16 m last Saturday in Donetsk, Lavillenie dominates many athletes, the qualities of which were considered up to now more favorable to performance. Comparison to illustrate the physical and technical characteristics of the highest men in the world :

The 6 best pole vaulters in history

Lavillenie, being 27 years old, reaches maturity for its discipline, judging from the age of the best pole vaulters when they have established their records. He still has many years ahead of him if he follows the footsteps of Bubka, who had passed his last 6 meters performance at 33, in 1997, the year of his last world title.

6.16 m - Lavillenie (FRA) Donetsk (indoor) February 15, 2014 - 27 years old
6.15 m - Sergei Bubka (UKR) Donetsk (indoor) February 21, 1993 - 29 years old
6.06 m - Steven Hooker (AUS) Boston (indoor) February 7, 2009 - 26 years old
6.05 m - Maksim Tarasov (RUS) Athens, June 16, 1999 - 28 years old
6.05 m - Dmitri Markov (RUS) Edmonton, August 9, 2001 - 26 years old
6.04 m - Brad Walker (USA) Eugene, June 8, 2008 - 26 years old

Their physiques

Yes, Lavillenie has a unique build, but this is a rightful reminder that there is no ideal morphotype for pole vault. Between the 1.68 m and 66 kg of the US man Greg Duplantis (5.80 m in 1993) and the 2.07 m and 91 kg of Jeremy Scott (runner-up in the US championships with 5.75 m in 2009), we can find all sizes and weights at international level. The lightness of the French gives him a clear advantage to rise into the air, while heavyweights can bend stiffer poles and have better propulsion. Arm strength also helps, which is why the bench press is an interesting exercise for pole vault . Most pole vaulters easily raise quintal. Lavillenie does'nt have this capacity, which makes sense for a featherweight. It compensates by its sprint speed, especially pole in hands, which is an advantage during the run-up.

Size - body weight - bench press max weight
1.76 m - 70 kg - 95 kg > Lavillenie
1.83 m - 80 kg - 130 kg > Bubka
1.87 m - 85 kg - 150 kg > Hooker
1.94 m - 81 kg - 120 kg > Tarasov
1.81 m - 80 kg - 137.5 kg > Markov
1.88 m - 86 kg - 120 kg > Walker

Their run-ups

According to the IAAF Competition Rules (Rule No. 183.6), "the minimum length of the runway, measured from the zero line, shall be 40 m and where conditions permit, 45 m." Back to competition on December 21 in Aulnay-sous-Bois (5.93 m), Lavillenie made do with 37 m and 16 steps. In general, he needs from 45 to 46 m and 20 steps. It played tricks on him during World Championships in Moscow last year, since the runway was limited to 43 m. In Donetsk, he even moved back his marks to 47 m. Not sure he can reproduce this during championships. Bubka used to start from 45 m with 20 steps. Brad Walker makes do with 18 steps, because to make 20, he would have to start 47.20 m from the box... The American has not competed sprint since high school, but felt he would make a bit less than 11 s on a 100 m track. Lavillenie indulges in this every year, and has set his record in 2011 with 11.04 s. They are, however, pole in hands, faster than Hooker, who ran 10.82 s. Bubka has no official reference on this distance, but showed very fast in training : 6 s 29 manual on 60 m. Something which should worth less than 10.50 s.

Distance - number of steps - maximum speed
47 m - 20 steps - 9.9 m/s > Lavillenie
45 m - 20 steps - 9.94 m/s > Bubka
43 m - 18 steps - 9.75 m/s > Hooker
? m - 18 steps - 9.75 m/s > Tarasov
41 m - 18 steps - 9.69 m/s > Markov
42.5 m - 18 steps - 9.9 m/s > Walker

Their poles

The Rule No.183.11 allows the imagination to run for choosing the tool to use to propel above the bar : "The pole may be of any material or combination of materials and of any lenght or diameter, but the basic surface must be smooth." However, we can notice a uniformity with the equipment of those best pole vaulters. Formerly disciple of 5.10 meters lenght poles, Lavillenie gradually complied with 5.20 m ones, like the best specialists, after initial training tests in November 2011. For his 6.16 m record, he even managed to jump by placing his upper hand 3 cm from the tip of his pole. Only Bubka has operated with such a lever. The flex number represents the strain capacity of the pole, horizontally fixed with a standard weight hung at its end. The lower the flex number, the stiffer the pole is, and the more is able to return the kinetic energy the athlete brings to it. This season, flex numbers higher than 14 have became too soft for Lavillenie, which led him to choose 13.8 at Donetsk. This parameter is the one that the Clermont-Ferrand residant will have to work with, in order to raise the bar even higher.

Length - lever - flex number
5.20 m - 5.17 m - 13.8 > Lavillenie
5.20 m - 5.18 m - 10.6 > Bubka
5.20 m - 5.11 m - 11.1 > Hooker
5.20 m - 5.10 m - 11.2 > Tarasov
5.20 m - 5.07 m - 12.0 > Markov
5.20 m - 5.12 m - 11.4 > Walker

Whether Lavillenie is neither the tallest nor the strongest, nor the fastest, he shows an efficient compromise between all these qualities, associated with two other ones, less easily quantifiable, agility and extraordinary self-confidence.

Thank to Alex Parnov (coach of Dmitri Markov and Steven Hooker) and Dan Pfaff (coach of Brad Walker and of Hooker also) for helping me to achieve this compilation, based on the work of Vitaly Petrov (former coach of Bubka).

Pierre-Jean Vazel, Le Monde, February 17, 2014.
Last edited by Wan on Thu Feb 20, 2014 11:05 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby palm1234 » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:35 am

Just curious, Chystiakov, how much at the bench ?

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:11 pm

Kirk:
So maybe now we should all be calling RL a tuck/tapper?
:no:

Tapping is ONLY a GENERIC term for a way to generate energy such as swing, pull, push. Tuck and Shoot is RL's style of vaulting nobody suggested otherwise. So no not even close? :confused:


Kirk:
Once RL begins to tuck, the rest of their respective techniques are so vastly different that we need not even go there!


To me this type of thinking is the type of thinking that has been holding pole vault back and is just the opposite of enlightning :no: :confused:

The very fact that their respective techniques for generating energy out of their Tap ARE different is the very reason we SHOULD examine and contrast them and that is exactly what I attempted to do in my post. :idea:
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.


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