The TAP at the top of the swing

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The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Sep 27, 2013 7:21 pm

So if you believe that you can add energy to the swing as you come out of the full body coil (Reverse-C) during the downswing and fully extend your body by extending your swing leg heel to the pit (Pole vault foot tap) to lower your COG. Why is it not also possible to add energy to the swing as you come out of the coil, bent the opposite direction (Inverted-C), while extending your heels to the sky at the top of the swing to raise your COG? Is this not also a tapping action?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98 Frames: 10-12
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby altius » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:02 pm

"So if you believe that you can add energy to the swing as you come out of the full body coil (Reverse-C) during the downswing and fully extend your body by extending your swing leg heel to the pit (Pole vault foot tap) to lower your COG. Why is it not also possible to add energy to the swing as you come out of the coil, bent the opposite direction (Inverted-C), while extending your heels to the sky at the top of the swing to raise your COG? Is this not also a tapping action?"

I never quite understood what the term "Double Dutch" meant. Is the above a good example? Or is it just more bull dust??
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby altius » Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:14 am

Yep Coach Eric - I have always found that my fancy old jargon is pretty good at confounding folk. I have made a reasonable living doing just that for nigh on fifty five years -as we say in OZ bulls*** always baffles brains. I just hope the folk I worked with in clinics this year in the US don't find out and ask for their money back.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:27 am

Is this not also a tapping action?
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:42 am

CoachEric wrote:Kurt and Allen, you are clearly just upset that you were not the first to bring the reverse-inverted C to PVP. I doubt you would even understand the advantages of the inverse Q and the inside-out K if I told you. Ride the arc of the body coil! Who's spouting bulldust now?!

Go back to confounding readers with your fancy jargon old chaps! Your years of elite pole vaulting and coaching have been proven false!

You are rong agin, Airiq, or should I call you Mr. Skwerel Brane. :no: I call it the dubble invers C, because I watch my proto Js from the other cide of the vaultway. Videoh cuming soon, I just need aproval from they're pairentz first befour I post there jumps on the Advansed Tekneek fourum.

And as four the Q and K body-coiled foot taps, I'm way ahed of u. I learnt to spel those 2 leters in Qinderguarden, witch is wear I did most of my resurch.

But I prefer to call them the double-dutch reverse K and the konkave Q, cuz the Active-I shape of the body is like the vertical part of the K, with the 2 diagnal parts being the top hand and bottom hand. In Bubqa's 6m vault (bare in mind that this is concidered the best vault in human history, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98), he puts his arms at xaqly 90 degrees two eech other, and 45 degrees to his Active-I, top and botom.

Coinsidense that he forms the letter K with his full body qoyel? No-siree Airiq! Petruv once told me in won of are fireside chats that this was the seqret to his suksess!

Next weaq, I'll bee explaning my double-footed foot tap, cuz I got two thinqing, and y knot tap with both feat and get dubble the invers body qoil with just half the qord?

Yeh-siree Airiq, thatz the tiqit! :yes:

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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby CoachEric » Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:19 am

Haha ok sorry PVDaddy that was rude of me. The issue is that you are trying to reinvent commonly understood technical points and renaming them. No one disputes that the vaulter should extend the hips upward and bring the feet back in line to vertical. I would not call this a tap, and I don't know anyone else who would. You occasionally demonstrate a willingness to be constructive, and other times you aggressively promote ideas that aren't original or have no practical application, and it's clear that those ideas aren't founded in experience from coaching or vaulting. This topic is an example of reinventing the wheel and calling it something else, hence the overwhelmingly sarcastic response you receive. Sorry if my offensive post was disproportionately harsh.

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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby altius » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:44 pm

Agree totally with CoachEric. You are obviously an enthusiast but unfortunately you have a tendency to run very enthusiastically in the wrong direction. That is usually accepted on polevaultpower from beginners on PVP, but what is not readily accepted is your complete lack of respect for the ideas of folk who have given years of their life to advancing this event. I can assure you that there is a vast body of knowledge underpinning my approach to coaching; some of that knowledge is pertinent to the issue of the inversion and how best to teach it. Your attitude has discouraged me from sharing it here because you will either immediately claim that you invented all this information or you wil decry it as being irrelevant. That said I have posted much of it earlier - before your arrived to contribute - so other folk may well have picked it up. This includes my mea culpa on the issue of the pull during inversion because if you read my book you will find that there I presented the purely Petrovian view of that aspect of technique. For reasons I am not going to explain to you, that analysis if understood and applied by coaches will work pretty well at ensuring youngsters achieve a pretty good inversion(As can be confirmed by the images of my own athletes). Note also my comments on the dvd in which I state - 'No pulling pushing rowing etc" - just swing on the pole as you do on the high bar". There are very good reasons for not giving a great deal - or in this case ANY - information to young athletes in this aspect of technique. Instead create learning situations in which they will learn what you want them to learn - without TEACHING anything.

Eventually if you do coach for long enough you will understand this notion. As I said earlier science can be both a basis for analysis -which you seem to enjoy - and a basis for action -which I prefer. :yes:
Last edited by altius on Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby coachjvinson » Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:28 pm

altius wrote:...There are very good reasons for not giving a great deal - or in this case ANY - information to young athletes in this aspect of technique. Instead create learning situations in which they will learn what you want them to learn - without TEACHING anything...

:yes: :yes:

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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:37 pm

Let me get this straight. It was only last week that many of you mocking me here were trying to determine what in fact a "Tap" even was? Then after you got that half figured out , you were trying to determine whether there was a "tapping action", similar to what a gymnast does, available in the vault and whether or not Bubka made use of this? Many concluded that there was (Except Kirk, but he's always closed minded,behind the curve (unstudied) and ignorant (To many ways to name) to anything new, especially if he was not the first to point it out. Who cares? Next month he will be sounding like me. ) and that's great! But now, Altius, Kirk and Eric are now all suddenly such apparent experts on the tap, that they are able to tell me what is not a TAP? My question for you newly founded tap experts is, which one? There are so many types of taps in gymnastics , the Soviet, Chinese, Markelov and Yamakawi tap, just to name a few. The Soviet tap starts from the hollow position and goes to the arched position. The Chinese tap starts in the arched position and goes to the Hollow position. The Markelov is a tap motion while swinging backward in an arched position were the vaulter straightens out at the top of the swing to generate power and height for a release move or dismount.The Yamawaki , A high bar release move first done by Japanese gymnast, Kyoji Yamawaki also involves swinging backward and it involves going from an arch to a reverse foot tap and then back to an arch (double arch) for release or dismount. So you see a tap is merely a way of generating energy into the swing from a arched or hollow position of the body (coil) whether swinging forward or backward and has evolved as a way to quickly accelerate the speed and power of the swing especially into release moves and dismounts! :idea: You can generate energy into the swing while going into the coil or coming out of it. Believe it or not, the spine has the capacity to coil or uncoil in either direction. It can also generate great energy in either direction during this uncoiling process through the use of the abdomen, back and shoulder muscles. When Bubka is in the Inverse-C position at the top of his swing prior to flyaway, is he not effectively in a coiled arched position? Could not the way Bubks comes out of his Inverse-C considered a form of a tapping motion? I merely raised the question? Here is what I had to say about it under my Agenda 21 thread under additional ways to add energy to the vault:

After Bubka breaks at the hips and his whip foot shin comes to the top of the pole and he is maintaining pressure on the poles fulcrum (Top hand. Just as he always does from Inverse-C through active-I through L to rock back to invert-I. If he did not the pole would uncoil faster) in that leaned back position (Spine bent) he has additional opportunities to add additional vertical energy to the flyaway and fully exploits them by doing the following:

1) He makes sure his head and shoulders drop back together behind the top arm (ephasis) (The chord of the pole) to serve as a counterweight to help bring the hips and legs up. see saw effect. This also improves his inverted position.

2) As the whip leg meets meets the drive knee from this rocked back position (Spine bent) he forcefully extends the drive leg (Straightens it out) heal skyward along with the whip heal through the hip (powerful muscle group). This adds great inertia to the upward propulsion of the hips and legs.

3) At the same time he forcefully extends the hips (Spine bent) upward by straightening out his spine through the use of his abdomen and back muscles (Also powerful muscle groups) and extends the hip ALL the way to the top arm (It can go no further and he makes FULL use of that range of motion!).

4) Finally he makes full use of the muscles around both shoulders (The last axis of rotation) to straighten the body up along the pole and to bring the hip to his top arm elbow.

ALL 4 OF THESE ACTIONS ALL ADD ADDITIONAL VERTICAL ENERGY TO ONE INTEGRATED SYSTEM AND MUST NOT BE OVERLOOKED!

check it out for yourself (Frames: 10-12) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby altius » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:16 pm

More evidence that you never read other posts. If you did you will find that I have NEVER used the term TAP in any context related to the vault - either on PVP or in either edition of BTB. In fact I have never joined in the recent discussion of this term. Yet you throw my name into the pot and miss the implications of what I did write in my last post in this forum. Coach Vinson picked it up but clearly you don't understand the important issues involved. Again I suspect this is evidence of someone with serious issues.
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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PV2020 » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:15 pm

altius wrote:More evidence that you never read other posts. If you did you will find that I have NEVER used the term TAP in any context related to the vault - either on PVP or in either edition of BTB. In fact I have never joined in the recent discussion of this term. Yet you throw my name into the pot and miss the implications of what I did write in my last post in this forum. Coach Vinson picked it up but clearly you don't understand the important issues involved. Again I suspect this is evidence of someone with serious issues.


And by NEVER, he means 3 times!

altius wrote:Anyone who comes to the advanced section who does not know how a tap swing is executed should go back to the beginners section.

Incidentally did you bother to read my earlier post? It addressed the question you raised earlier.


altius wrote:I am just trying to work out what the term 'Tap swing' really means. i think i know what is crucial in this phase of the vault - Page 152 of BTB clearly ...


altius wrote:Vtechvaulter. For the benefit of a pv nerd - oops - forgot i was promoted - well for the benefit of a non American speaker can you explain the difference between a tap swing and a straight leg swing - and why you think it makes no difference please which you use? :dazed:


Just had to be that guy... :D

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Re: The TAP at the top of the swing

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:42 pm

Altius quoting me: "So if you believe that you can add energy to the swing as you come out of the full body coil (Reverse-C) during the downswing and fully extend your body by extending your swing leg heel to the pit (Pole vault foot tap) to lower your COG. Why is it not also possible to add energy to the swing as you come out of the coil, bent the opposite direction (Inverted-C), while extending your heels to the sky at the top of the swing to raise your COG? Is this not also a tapping action?"

Altius:
I never quite understood what the term "Double Dutch" meant. Is the above a good example? Or is it just more bull dust??


You made your opinion with your above sarcastic comment quite clear about how you felt about a tapping action at the top of the swing.

I do like your and Kirk's use the word "double dutch" however as it also refers to an American game of jumping two ropes swinging in opposite directions just like gymnast can also perform a tap while swinging in either directions or coming out of a hollow or arched position. I believe a pole vaulter can take advantage of this strategy as well in both the downswing and the upswing. That's just mho ok? Call it gobbledygook all you like.
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