pushing back out during the swing?

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:33 am

I would say that it does matter to some degree, and you are right that you can achieve success regardless of what you do, not understanding the implications of the left arm post takeoff can be detrimental if you try to mix models. For example, if you look at Otto and Lavillenie, both are almost equally successful, and both have radically different left arm actions immediately post takeoff. I will not speculate what each is doing, although I have my opinions, but I believe that if they "switched places" and did what the other was doing, it would greatly hinder their performance. Basically, as a coach or athlete, you will find that vastly different models can be very successful, but mixing them together can have dangerous consequences. Case in point: You can jump with an inside takeoff on a big pole, block out or at least extend both arms vigorously into the pole, drop the knee, tuck and shoot and jump very high. You can also execute a free takeoff, pull like crazy with the left arm, and jump high. If the first vaulter were to all of a sudden pull immediately after takeoff, they would probably find that they are greatly over gripped, and fall in the box. Likewise if the second vaulter tried to extend both arms after takeoff, they would seemingly blow through the pole and not be able to make an attempt at the bar.

Each action in the vault flows into the next. It follows back to the future rules. If you deviate early on, you end up on an "alternate timeline" and by the end of the vault you find out that Biff is super rich and married to your mom!


Or that you deviate further from other models as the vault goes on.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby Chaebo » Tue Jun 04, 2013 11:45 am

I agree with you and watch many videos on both and have to say i'm very intregued by Otto being he jumps from about a foot under consistantly and jumps very consistantly att a very high level. And you are correct that all vaulters have their nacks and they would hinder their performances dramatically if they changed those. But, What i am stating is that if you coach 2 perfectly symetrical vaulters in every aspect including and coached them exactly the same up till the down swing has begun. I believe whether or not they push their arm out or not they will be equally successful with no differences in performances heights. This is impossible to test but I do not believe that after the downswing has begun and the pole starts to roll whether or not a vaulter pushes or not will not alternate his/her jump very much if at all.

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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Sep 07, 2013 5:51 pm

chaebo; We have an argument here between persons who believe you do not push back during the swing (Post Elastic Phase) because the pole will naturally uncoil which causes the false image of the pole uncoiling through bottom hand pressure. This also doesn't block the hips.
Chaebo, I believe you are very correct in your analysis. I Have never been a proponent of blocking out during the downswing. As I have So many times previously stated I believe that the bottom arm should move with the pole. The direction that naturally wants to go. I believe this places the vaulter further away from the pole and allows for a more longer, powerful swing as it also places more pressure on the full body coil throughout the downswing. This also places the vaulter anymore biomechanical position for pulling During the upswing as a vaulter breaks at the hips. I got so tired and frustrated about being taken out of context by Kirk suggesting that I was advocating blocking out during the downswing that I quit posting.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:39 pm

So just to clarify, I believe the forward and upward extension of the bottom hand throughout the downswing provides the following benefits:
1. It maintains the full hollow body elastivity of the shoulder joints just like the gymnast tap on the high bar. Any pulling during this stage of the vault would destroy that and slow down the swing.
2. Ensures that the pole is continuing to rotate toward vertical as the bottom hand is moving with the direction of the pole. Any pulling at this stage stops the pole from rotating to vertical.
3. Maintains pressure on the full body coil which allows for a longer, more powerful and faster swing to inversion.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVstudent » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:41 am

PV Daddy could you please re-examine your last post on this topic.

It is, to put it mildly, wrong with respect to the mechanical principles of pendular swinging as applied to pole vaulting with flexible poles.

Also, your characterisation of the "gymnastics tap swing mechanism" is wrong in regard to both the mechanics and the timing of the "tap".

Please remember the angular motion analogues of Newton's Laws of Motion must apply at all times. The vaulter's muscles switching on and off, gradation of effort and sequential applications of torques / forces are also bound by these constraints.

What you see and your causal explanations for your observations should correctly reflect biomechanics and physics of motion.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby VaultMarq26 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:03 pm

PVDaddy wrote:So just to clarify, I believe the forward and upward extension of the bottom hand throughout the downswing provides the following benefits:
1. It maintains the full hollow body elastivity of the shoulder joints just like the gymnast tap on the high bar. Any pulling during this stage of the vault would destroy that and slow down the swing.
2. Ensures that the pole is continuing to rotate toward vertical as the bottom hand is moving with the direction of the pole. Any pulling at this stage stops the pole from rotating to vertical.
3. Maintains pressure on the full body coil which allows for a longer, more powerful and faster swing to inversion.


It seems like you understand the importance of not pulling during the plant and swing phase, and I don't think anyone is arguing this.

I still don't understand your reasoning behind using the bottom arm to rotate the pole toward vertical.

Could you go more into the why of this?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby VaultMarq26 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:04 pm

PVDaddy wrote:So just to clarify, I believe the forward and upward extension of the bottom hand throughout the downswing provides the following benefits:
1. It maintains the full hollow body elastivity of the shoulder joints just like the gymnast tap on the high bar. Any pulling during this stage of the vault would destroy that and slow down the swing.
2. Ensures that the pole is continuing to rotate toward vertical as the bottom hand is moving with the direction of the pole. Any pulling at this stage stops the pole from rotating to vertical.
3. Maintains pressure on the full body coil which allows for a longer, more powerful and faster swing to inversion.


It seems like you understand the importance of not pulling during the plant and swing phase, and I don't think anyone is arguing this.

I still don't understand your reasoning behind using the bottom arm to rotate the pole toward vertical.

Could you go more into the why of this?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:11 pm

PVstudent, do you care to elaborate on how you recommend to use the bottom arm during the downswing and how and why your theories are superior to my method as they apply to the laws of biomechanics and physics and Newtons laws?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby VaultMarq26 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:16 pm

Since the top arm is further from the fulcrum(the box) would that not give you more mechanical advantage than using the bottom arm? That is the whole idea of how wrenches work correct?
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:06 pm

Vaultmarq, It's not so much that the forward extension of the bottom hand causes the pole to move toward vertical (although I would argue that it does contribute to a more powerful and faster angular momentum around the first axis of rotation (the top hand) and that angular momentum does help the pole to rotate toward vertical) as it is to the fact that you are not pulling during the downswing. Pulling during the downswing will stall the swing and the rotation of the pole to vertical. Actually I do not believe that this point is agreed by all, for example Agapits 640 model, which as I understand it, advocates pulling during the downswing.
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby VaultMarq26 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:23 pm

Just so I am picturing this correctly in my mind, what do you consider the "downswing". i e, when does it start and stop. Just looking for a reference
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Re: pushing back out during the swing?

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:48 pm

VaultMarq26, Take a look at " Bubka's first 6 Meter vault " (Youtube). Freeze the frame were his bottom hand is directly over his head at 12 oclock. This just happens to be the point that the vaulter has completed vaulter/pole system loading and penetration is complete. The swing leg foot is high behind the buttocks at this frame. Press play. Notice that as the pole continues to coil forward, the bottom hand continues to extend forward with the coil (In my opinion this action fully complies with Petrov's philosophy of "move the pole always"). Notice that the swing foot moves foward in a downward arc to a position directly pointing at the pit at a 45 degree angle. Notice at this point Bubka has also completed the forward extension of the bottom hand. I choose to call this the downswing portion of the swing because the downswing foot has moved from an elevated position to a lower position (Many refer to this fully extended leg as" the Active-I"). I like that term ' Active-I" because I feel this is were the downswing now transisions from the downswing to the upswing and the abs become fully engaged (Active) to continue the swing against the forces of gravity and as the vaulter breaks at the hips an active pulling action(active) with both arms also occurs. I believe that from a physic and biomechanical position this is the ideal time to pull.
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