BTB Better Than Bubka

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
Lyndell Farmer
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BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby Lyndell Farmer » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:18 pm

Why hasn’t anyone broken Bubkas world record. We have the correct model, Bubka was not a super human athlete. The Americans, the Europeans or anyone else on the planet can’t produce a vaulter capable of breaking Bubkas record. Why not? Its something you won’t read about on any web site, in a book or hear from the elite coaches, they don’t know, otherwise they would have done it. Its time to look elsewhere. What is missing in our present methods? What do you think?
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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby dj » Wed Oct 27, 2010 12:53 pm

good morning Lyndell,

it's the Approach Run...

the correct set up TO the "MID" so the vaulter has the correct "distance" to the takeoff for THEIR speed ability.

to reach world record heights you need a 10 left (right) run so the vaulters has the needed MPS, with the correct posture/stride length/frequencies to grip high enough and produce enough "pole speed" to jump the record.

all that is missing is the correct run on the correct pole and grip...... the accuracy/length and frequencies are on the chart and correct +/- 15cm for the Six Stride Check Mark.

FORM follows function...


dj

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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:31 pm

What DJ shares is one peice of many to the great puzzle. Each phase (run, plant, takeoff, swing & extension) has to be understood with great detail by the coach. The coach needs an exceptional athlete at a young age with no rush to get them jumping high, with a master plan to perfect each phase... Which you most likely won't see in America since kids are rushed to jump high in AAU, High School, College etc...

1-You need an elite world class coach
2-You need a young physically capable athlete (Bubka was an excellent athlete, anyone who can long jump 23ft from 10 steps and run 10mps with a monster pole in their hands is incredible... There may have been others close to his athleticism but if he isn't the most athletic pole vaulter all-time I garuntee he is in the top 5 of the thousands and thousands who have tried pole vaulting)
3- The athlete has to have the mentality to drill each phase towards perfection and trust in the coach. Bubka was a perfectionist. He was mentaly tough and devoted a big part of his life to be the best he possibly could be.
4- You need facilities and equipment

So you need a one in a million coach, one in a million athlete (as far as mental and physical capabilities), and you need a training facility and equipment and about 10-15 years....
Now tell me how easy that is to find???? I am sure I left out some stuff but you get the point I am trying to make.
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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby Lyndell Farmer » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:09 pm

DJ and Kyle are right on target with what I was thinking. The conditions and training that produced Bubka don’t exist today anywhere I am aware of. In this country we are producing a lot of 4 meter HS girls and 5.20 HS boys vaulters. I feel this is a direct result of the Pole Vault clubs and private facilities. How many vaulters go to college and don’t progress? How many NCAA athletes don’t progress after college? Can we as a pole vaulting collective change these dynamics and produce some Bubka class vaulters.
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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby dj » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:16 pm

hye

The Run... Kyle.. yes each phase needs to be correct... but the "chain" we are wanting to create starts with the first step/pole grip and position.. and has to be correct, speed and accuracy for the grip for 120 to 140 feet down the runway.

how many high school vaulters improve their speed and athletic ability in college???

How many vaulters move their run back to any degree in college...

how many vaulters are spending 90+ percent of there time on short run vaulting and not any time doing speed… real speed 8 to 10 left approaches on the track with the pole???

you have to have the physics at the takeoff... to perform the swing and "launch" correctly

dj

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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:56 pm

Sometimes the answers are not as simple as a golden nugget or reason.... Let's look at this from another perspective!

When Bubka broke the record for the first time in 1984 it was only 5.81 at the age of 21......
It took him 9 years to progress that height to 6.15 at the age of 30......

Till roughly 1991 he was under the Soviet System of basically treating and allowing their athletes to be science rats. (simplistic term)
His youth development was under strict instruction from top developmental coaches in the 100 and long jump. I'm guessing from age 12 till he picked up a pole (anyone know exact age he started vaulting?)
Lots of the stories I have heard (none of which are exactly about Bubka) are athletes being trained like the boxing character Drago in the Rocky series.
Young kids were enrolled in schools thats only purpose was to excel as athletes if they failed they were sent home. This is gymnastics, swimming, track etc.... They were set up for ideal and perfect development as youth atheltes. Do we get that here in the US?

Bubka was in a setting for his entire career of near perfect situations for development. The equivalent of our Olympic Training Center in Chula Vista since probably age 18 or earlier. Everything was available to him and it just so happened Vatali Petrov was the vault coach.

What if the coach at the center at was John Smith? Would Bubka have been the Bubka we know?

Here is an interesting question that only those (a very select few) that have jumped 6 meters can answer. If they had been the first to jump 5.81 and set records like Bubka did as they progressed to 6 meters what kind of emotional and mental high would they have been on? Would they have jumped higher if they had the same mental high from being the first the progress those heights? How aggressive and willing to try things do you get when your constantly breaking records and jumping higher? Every new height and success leads to more positive emotions and wiliness to push the envelop that much more.

If the WR when Bubka was 21 would have been let's say 6.15 would even Bubka had challenged the WR? Could he have lasted 10+ years to progress to 6.16? Data shows it took him 10 years of stress on his body. Could he have made it without the WR's, without the money he made, without the mental carrot of each WR is pay day? Would people have written him off when he went 3 years without jumping higher or are we seeing the same progression that we see in Renuld and Hooker that Bubka would have shown?

Our system in the US is what it is Athletes come out of college at the age of 22 to 23 which means if they can survive 10 years to age 32 to 33 than we will see what they can do. How many actually do that? Hartwig at age 31 jumped 6.03 meters, Tim Mack age 32 6.01, Toby Stevenson age 28 jumped 6.00, Brad Walker age 27 jumped 6.04, hooker age 27 jumped 6.06.

Finally Renaud at age 23 jumped 6.01 is he the next bubka? Can he last 10 years till age 31 to find out is the real answer. At age 22 he jumped 5.81 putting him near Bubka's record at age 21. Only time will tell if he can continue to 6.16.

The vault and ideology is as simple as get speed, grip high and get launched. Yes it is more complicated than that, but in the end thats all it is. The real question is HOW DO THESE VAULTERS SURVIVE LONG ENOUGH? The mind is an amazing and strange thing. One moment your on fire and the next your on a low. Maximize the emotional highs and minimize the emotional lows is the name of the game.

As a side note have you seen pictures of the facilities those athletes in Europe have? We have an old gym, vault area that is no longer big enough for a full approach, a weight room we built in an old shower room and phiso by begging and pleading people to help. Not being allowed to train others because the facility says no one else can train here. Till as a whole we have the same training club systems they have in Europe or when Bubka was in his prime it will make it more challenging to progress they way he did. If you really want to help join our booster club!!!!!!!!

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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:35 pm

ADTF Academy wrote:Young kids were enrolled in schools thats only purpose was to excel as athletes if they failed they were sent home. This is gymnastics, swimming, track etc.... They were set up for ideal and perfect development as youth atheltes. Do we get that here in the US?


You can get that in the US in gymnastics and swimming IF the parents have enough money and are willing to relocate to the best training centers.

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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby Divalent » Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:39 pm

rainbowgirl28 wrote:
ADTF Academy wrote:Young kids were enrolled in schools thats only purpose was to excel as athletes if they failed they were sent home. This is gymnastics, swimming, track etc.... They were set up for ideal and perfect development as youth atheltes. Do we get that here in the US?

You can get that in the US in gymnastics and swimming IF the parents have enough money and are willing to relocate to the best training centers.

You could have added hockey, ice skating, tennis, ballet, etc to that list as well. (I'm sure there are more). I think the point is valid though: when a large superpower decides that olympic gold medals are a valuable national asset and sign of national prestige (particularly to divert attention from the overall failure of their economic system), the money, effort, and resources they can invest in a systematic and focused way can make a huge difference at finding and perfecting that top performer. Many of the Soviet bloc countries did this in the 70's and 80's, whereas the West mostly relied on self selection and whatever family resouces could be brought to bear. Can the Western model achieve what the soviet model did? I suspect it can (eventually), but it is less efficient. But also less ruthless: I'd bet that many more kids participated in T&F in the West than did in the Soviet Union, because we also placed a value on participation per se. (Those HS aged kids that only cleared 13' probably never PVed again when cut from the Soviet system, whereas in the US they had opportunities to continue to compete.)

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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby altius » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:11 am

I cannot tell you how pleased I am that the discussion has moved to this level. As many of the old timers will remember, many of my first fifty or so contributions to PVP were attempts to convince folk that Bubka did not jump high simply because he was a superman -but that while he was indeed an immensely talented athlete he had a great support team and employed a superior technical model - courtesy of Petrov.

Once that is accepted it becomes easier to consider how best to create environments where talented athletes can progress - and they dont have to be perfect! Never forget that Hooker went to 5.92 with Mark Stewart in a less than perfect training environment -whether he would have progressed to 6.06 in Melbourne is a moot point; not because of coaching but simply poor training facilities - ie no decent indoor area. The test for the US system will come when we look at the progress of athletes like Hollis and Niedermeyer over the next two years. In haste!!
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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby baggettpv » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:31 am

And we see the continual search here in the US by the post collegiate athletes. Oregon City is looking better and better.

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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:02 am

Divalent wrote:Can the Western model achieve what the soviet model did? I suspect it can (eventually), but it is less efficient. But also less ruthless: I'd bet that many more kids participated in T&F in the West than did in the Soviet Union, because we also placed a value on participation per se. (Those HS aged kids that only cleared 13' probably never PVed again when cut from the Soviet system, whereas in the US they had opportunities to continue to compete.)


And we have to have that increased participation since our sport is not funded by the government. You need a thousand 11' HS boys buying PV spikes from Nike in order for Nike to sponsor the handful of vaulters they still do. Most club coaches need to coach a bunch of kids with little to no potential in order to make ends meet.

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Re: BTB Better Than Bubka

Unread postby VaultPurple » Sun Oct 31, 2010 12:52 am

American pole vaulting works backwards. In the days of Bubka in Europe, they only taught the best to pole vault at a high level like previously stated. 95% of American high school pole vaulters are the left overs that are not fast enough to do any other events. Most head coaches know nothing of the pole vault and really do not care so most will not even let their most athletic athletes pole vault because they either think it is a waist of time or they don't want their fastest guy to get hurt.

Almost every high school in the nation has at least one guy that is physically able to jump 16' with the right coach. They all have the 6'+ football or basketball player that can run a 4.7 40 or better. But almost none of those guys will ever probably even know what pole vaulting is, let along ever have someone if they wan't to try it.

Occasionally you get those freaks of nature like Michael Morrison or Tommy Skipper that could be world class at any event/sport of their choosing but even the majority of high school kids in the 15-16 foot range probably could not run under 11.5 seconds in the 100.

In no way am I saying everyone shouldn't get to pole vault, but the USA is huge, and way more kids get the opportunity to pole vault, but we just have to convince the top athletes that pole vaulting is awesome and they should want to do it.

If you have every kid that can run from 11.5-12 seconds in the 100, then you may get 1-5 17 foot pole vaulters in high school. But if you get every kid that can run sub 11 to pole vault, then maybe well get 10 18 foot vaulters a year.


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