takeoff angle and beyond

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby dj » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:36 pm

hey alan,

we are still on the same page.. if you add in the penultimate... which Tellez and some of us did.. you get the result that petrov explains..

the hands do travel through and "up".. what i said was simply the 'terminology" of the day.. the drive through part was to emphasize to the vaulter to continue the speed and "attack" through the plant not just "to" the plant... if the plant was high the left hand would follow "up" if the pole bent correctly..

the "pick you up" part was merely what the vaulter would "feel" (as if the pole effortlessly picked you from the runway) if the vaulter had planted "out", continued their speed, had a penultimate (which is the "pre-jump") and reached high.. with the top arm.. when these happened the vaulter knew that they had better swing "like the devil".. to catch up to the pole and it's speed to vertical..

dj

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:01 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote: Now what I agree with Roman and disagree with Kirk on is being passive with the bottom arm during the swing/ inversion. ... So why be passive with the bottom hand if we can speed up the swing with the bottom arm??? This will add energy into the system, increase pole= shortening chord= faster pole rotation= BIGGER POLES AND BIGGER PUSH OFF. I don't know how you would disagree with this.


KE, you're overloading the word "passive". Just becuz your bottom arm is neither pushing nor pulling doesn't mean that your entire body ... sans your bottom arm ... isn't EXTREMELY active. In the time that you do something with your bottom arm (either push or pull), I've already pre-stretched to an extremely elastic C, stretched the trail leg back AND UP, and started my downswing VIGOROUSLY ... with trail leg AND top arm. What I get out of that is an amazingly VIGOROUS, FAST, EFFICIENT whipping action ... bar none. Meanwhile, you're still SLOWLY pushing or pulling, and wondering why your trail leg action is so slow! You shouldn't try to stay "behind the pole" by slowing anything down ... you should instead try to stay behind it by working your body FASTER than the pole is moving. Everything needs to be at hyperspeed! And BTW, as I'm whipping the trail leg thru fast and strong, the bottom arm is no longer passive ... it DOES take on more and more body weight as you approach the chord. At one point in the swing, the pole is somewhat horizontal, and you hip-circle-handstand around it ... VERY similar to a shoot-to-a-handstand on a highbar! I know you've never felt this feeling ... or you would instantly appreciate its value!

Why do I disagree with "speeding up the swing with the bottom arm"? Becuz according to Roman, you should not even go thru the pre-stretch position ... you should begin swinging immediately after takeoff. I for one can't do that ... and I've never seen anyone that could. Even Isaksson had a pre-stretch before he swung. The pre-stretch is essential ... IMHO ... to "go elastic" ... as well as to move the pole to vertical.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: I am pretty sure that Tim still believed the left arm played a role in the inital phase of the takeoff even after the experiment.

I'm not going to dig up his quote as proof (you can do that), but I clearly remember him conceding that the left arm did NOT play a role ... his exact words were very close to "I give up" ... meaning that his expirement proved himself wrong, and he indeed did NOT have to use the bottom arm in order to bend the pole. Rather than continue to debate this, we should just wait for Tim to chime in.

PVstudent summarizes why not using the bottom arm to get INTO the pre-stretch position is a GOOD thing ...
PVstudent wrote:At the end of the range of motion induced on the vaulter by the pole these same muscles undergo rapid active turnaround to produce (muscle stretch augmented, high velocity) powerful concentric active action of the explosive whole body "whip" leg swing.

This is in line with what I'm saying.

I also agree with what DJ is saying ...
dj wrote: ... you should "attack" through the pit toward the back and let the pole "pick you up".. SWING as fast as you can.. no pressure with the bottom hand.. the whole swing was around the top hand and shoulder girdle.. line up with the pole and come vertically off the top. ...

... except that saying "you should 'attack' thru the pit toward the back and let the pole 'pick you up'" doesn't emphasize the need to JUMP forwards AND UPWARDS enough. The UPWARDS part of the jump is so-o-o-o-o important!

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:46 pm

QUOTES FROM TIM MCM
"I have also released by bottom hand from a pole just after takeoff. The left arm need not be on the pole at all once it starts moving. I do not disput that. I want to see someone release the bottom hand in the middle of their plant motion, BEFORE they leave the ground."

"Post a vid please. This is something I really want to see, and it would make the point clear. Before I accept something that sounds as dangerous as this, I need to see what it looks like so that there is no misunderstanding."

"If what I do in the video is what you meant by bending the pole with the right arm alone, then we have been arguing at cross purposes. I knew this was possible years ago and incorporated its implications in my jump. If this is the case, I think you will find that we agree on other issues as well – in principle at least. What you have said so far, however, suggests that something like this is possible.
http://www.treemo.com/users/tmcmicha/ch ... set/31091/
This is not what I do in the video. I let go of the pole; but only AFTER I have already left the ground and the pole has started moving, not before. The input from the left arm is minimal, but it is still present. I can probably let go even earlier, but I still doubt very seriously that I can let go before I leave the ground. The more I think about it, the less it seems possible from a physics standpoint. The angles and lines of force just don't add up to the middle of the pole beginning to deflect without some input from the bottom arm. I will gladly concede that that input does not need to be interpreted as a "push," especially if it means a blocking action. But the illustration I have drawn looks to me like it would take the kind of miracle that I'm pretty sure Newton didn't believe in. Till I do it or see it happen I'm keeping the $500 to pay for possible medical bills."

"I think it is absolutely fair to say that I am not pushing, but as my previous post suggests, I still believe that the left arm serves a vital purpose in starting the middle of the pole moving. The purpose of my experiment is to explore exactly what that is. I’ve got some ideas, but I will have to do some more thinking (and jumping). If it turns out that I don’t need to have the left hand on the pole at all - throughout the entire plant and takeoff - I will be the first to say so, but if not, I’m going to try to find the language that will accurately describe what is happening. I think that beginning from the extreme minimum will help."

"Ok, I tried it again, and I did manage to get my left hand completely off of the pole before takeoff, with pretty horrible results. I got clocked by the pole and then my right hand slid down about a foot. (Yes there are blisters.) I want to know from Agapit what he thinks I did wrong, because I definitely get something other than the result he says I should. "

"Until you can show me someone who can plant their competition pole without their bottom hand on the pole throughout the entire plant - and I am not talking about taking it off after the pole has started bending; any good vaulter can do that, and it is a good demonstration that the bottom arm is not necessary to keep the pole moving; I am also not talking about a small pole that can be dropped into the box so that it rebounds out of a negative bend and starts moving that way; I am talking about having the bottom hand off of a BIG pole BEFORE it hits the back of the box - I will continue to maintain that the bottom arm plays a role in starting the pole bending.
This is not the same thing as pushing with the bottom arm after the pole has started moving."

AND THIS IS WHAT YOU ARE REFERRING TO Kirk
"Okay, I give up. I'm having to work too hard to hold my position. I just spent some time talking to Bruce Caldwell who has been making poles forever, and he assured me that with a great takeoff the bottom hand did not need to be on the pole at all. So, I give. Congrats Roman. "
On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:14 am

Kirk you would save me a lot of writing if you would read things the way they are and not the way you remember them in your mind. Roman did indeed say swing after takeoff, but Kirk if its after takeoff then everything is stretched back and ready to go anyways. Lets go over terminology again
Plant- The purpose of the plant is to put a pole with minimum energy loses in the position at the take-off where a vaulter will not experience pole resistance during the take-off
Takeoff- Phase in which the body is being stretched into the backward "c" position
After Takeoff- The takeoff is complete, all of the muscles are stretched and ready to fire.

So when Roman says after takeoff, that means everything is pre-stretched. And from what I gather is that the free takeoff and not resisting with the bottom arm are crucial in hitting this position the right way.

Kirk it aggravates me that you tell me what I do and what I am trying to do, when really you have no freaking clue... I have been in pole vault limbo trying to coach and train at the same time. Trying to learn a model that apparently even some of the best coaches in the country aren't 100% clear. This is easily visible with all the coaches on PVP who have worked with Petrov and how different their opinions can be. It seems I was changing something every week, and experimenting.... Don't judge me off a video you saw of me from 3lefts, how fast could you swing from 3lefts with no speed?? Oh wait I forget that I am talking to the Canadian Bubka before Bubka who did everything perfect. So thanks for comparing me to your perfect jump that we can not view our selves :confused: :confused:

I think me and Tim are on the same page with the left arm, and I don't think it is that much different from whatever everyone else is saying.... Push before the pole contacts the box, then everything transfers into the top arm while the body pushes forward... And with a free takeoff this will (to the vaulter) feel instantaneous
On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby dj » Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:14 am

hye Kirk,

the "upwards" part comes from a correct penultimate..

physics... for each action there is an equal and opposite re-action..

has to be ... long/short.. not long/longer..

i believe petrov refers to the penultimate as the pre-jump.. which in itself signifies a "jump" is to follow.

dj

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:28 am

One last thing, I know I have sinned... But it doesn't mean I don't believe in the possibility of the 6.40 model. Everyone close to me knows I can't stop thinking about it and investigating it. I see something, light bulb just hasn’t went on all the way yet.
For along time I was trying to figure out if there were any difference in the Bubka model and the 6.40 model… From what I gather now there isn’t. What Roman describes, this is what he is saying Bubka did.

Sorry to all coaches that I have sinned against, but I need to know for certain… It has to make sense logically and scientifically. I have put my time and trust into many false prophets along the way, even though it went against my instincts. I think even Roman can respect someone being suspicious until they are truly enlightened.
On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Sat Mar 20, 2010 12:54 am

I think even Roman can respect someone being suspicious until they are truly enlightened. Did you mean Buddha?
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:27 am

dj wrote: i believe petrov refers to the penultimate as the pre-jump.. which in itself signifies a "jump" is to follow.

Now I'm totally confused. I didn't think that Petrov ever used the term "pre-jump". I was quite certain ... unless my memory is failing me ... that Petrov referred to "free takeoff" ... and Altius coined the term "pre-jump", when referring to an extremely free takeoff. Altius, did you not write an article re this ... about a page long ... published somewhere on the internet or in a book somewhere (not BTB)? :confused: I do not recall Petrov ... or Altius ... saying anything about a penultimate "as the pre-jump". Not trying to start an argument ... I'm just totally confused as to why Altius ... who just read your post ... and commented on something unrelated to it ... did not clarify what HE meant when HE coined the term. :confused:

Just trying to keep all this terminology "accurate".

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:45 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote: Kirk you would save me a lot of writing if you would read things the way they are and not the way you remember them in your mind.

Well, I did recall exactly what Tim said ... "I give up" ... so I don't understand your complaint. I think I have a fairly sharp memory ... and a clear mind on these matters. Thanks for digging up Tim's quote ... it's exactly as I remembered it. I really don't understand your beef.

KYLE ELLIS wrote: Roman did indeed say swing after takeoff, but Kirk if its after takeoff then everything is stretched back and ready to go anyways. Lets go over terminology again
Plant- The purpose of the plant is to put a pole with minimum energy loses in the position at the take-off where a vaulter will not experience pole resistance during the take-off
Takeoff- Phase in which the body is being stretched into the backward "c" position
After Takeoff- The takeoff is complete, all of the muscles are stretched and ready to fire.

So when Roman says after takeoff, that means everything is pre-stretched.

I think the confusion lies in the definition of "takeoff". When I read what Roman said about a "takeoff", I did not visualize it as ending with a fully-streteched body in the C. That's called "finishing the takeoff" ... and not what I recall Roman was referring to. I interpreted what he was saying as "when the takeoff foot leaves the ground". This is quite different. I have NEVER said that you can't "pull" or "push" AFTER the pre-stretch. If you want to make the pre-stretch and the takeoff synonymous, then that changes the context completely. You'll have to dig up Roman's quote about pulling right after the takeoff, and then show me where he meant that to mean AFTER a pre-stretch. I don't think he's ever referred to a pre-stretch. I still think he was referring to "takeoff" as "when the toe leaves the ground" ... as in a free takeoff.

Anyway Kyle, I sense that you're getting a little riled about this, and you're starting to fire daggers in my direction. I'm really not interested in playing that game ... I'm sorry that you rejected my advice about being ACTIVE with every part of your body whilst your bottom arm is used just for balance. You misinterpreted that. It was not my intent to be mean-spirited or insult you in any way ... you PLEADED with me via PM to analyze your vault ... and after I did (sorry for the delay), you're now defending your 3-left vault as not being representative enough of your longer run to assume that your swing is too slow. If you ask for advice, you should expect to get advice ... candid advice where I call it like I see it. I'm sorry to say, but your swing is too slow ... and I suggested how you might speed that up. Take my advice or leave it ... but don't fire back with daggers.

I'm going to stop replying to your posts if you can't be civil about this. I know you're just seeking the truth about the Petrov and the 640 models, but you need to stick to the technical issues ... and avoid vendictive personal attacks. They do nothing to help your cause. In fact, they piss people off ... which I don't think is what you intended. :dazed:

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:58 pm

Kirk - I realise that your own experience is important to you but there are times when you might benefit from that of others -especially when they have gone out on a limb to spell out exactly what they believe about vault technique.

You ask why I did not clarify the term 'pre jump since I coined it'.

if you bother to read pages 241/242/243/244/245 in BTB2 you will find that I have gone to great lengths to define the term and to clarify its origins.

Like anybody who tries to write I know that 'misguided words can often lead to misguided actions'. The term "Ground hog day" keeps flashing through my mind - I wonder why that is?? I think it is time to go into hibernation again. I am sure the same issues will be being thrashed out if I were to return in three years - just by different experts.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby dj » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:39 pm

hye

what is your (alan) description of a "pre-jump"...

dj

ps........reference to "driving through to the back of the pit"....

... from Petrov..

"Of great importance is the depth of the body's forward advance during the take-off. With this in mind, even during the take-off the athlete must release the shoulder girdle from tension and drive his chect forward/upward, while at the same time taking off with the support leg and swing with the free leg. The quickness and depth of the takeoff greatly influence the technique of all the next elements of the vault: hang, swing and rock-back. Moreover the performance of the takeoff phase determines the rhythm of subsequent parts of the vault.

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:00 am

altius wrote: You ask why I did not clarify the term 'pre jump since I coined it'.

if you bother to read pages 241/242/243/244/245 in BTB2 you will find that I have gone to great lengths to define the term and to clarify its origins. ...

I sense some annoyance in your tone ... when you say "if you bother to read ...". Don't know why ... it was a straight-forward question. :dazed:

Thanks for pointing out those pages. Unlike some people, I don't have that book memorized. ;)

You do indeed describe the pre-jump there. But BTB2 wasn't the first place I read it. I read it from an online paper that you'd written on the topic sometime before 2005 ... which I read in ~2005. It has the same quotes from Bubka.

But having reviewed these pages, I'm still none the wiser re my question. My question was regarding whether a pre-jump had anything to do with a penultimate ... as suggested by DJ. You don't say in BTB2 ... and you still haven't clarified this in this thread. I guess DJ is asking for this same clarification.

Kirk
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