takeoff angle and beyond

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
KYLE ELLIS
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:37 pm

altius wrote:"it hasn’t clicked for me yet". Nor me -we have agreed to disagree on this - but as I have observed elsewhere -who am i to disagree with the coach of an indoor world champion? By the way - suggest you make sure you head to Knoxville not Nashville if you want to see Roma -that is if he can find a place for us to run a clinic.


Oops, I meant knoxville.
I just uploaded this video (of petrov), I think it shows trying to learn the feel from pushing up and releasing the shoulder girdle and pushing forward with the body. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2B22IyD2cs
Isi's video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnmKVwd ... re=related

and some quotes....
"The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it firmly towards the bar and then transfers the effort to the right hand"

"Of great importance in pole vaulting is the depth of the body advancement forward during the take-off. With this in mind, even during the take-off the athlete must release the shoulder girdle from tension and drive his chest forward/upward, while at the same time taking off with the support leg and swinging with the free leg."

"The quickness and depth of the take-off greatly influence the technique of all the next elements of the vault"

If we divide the pole vault into its different phases, it will help us to examine the nuances of the modern pole vaulting pattern:

the pole hold and carry
approach (beginning and middle part)
pole drop and plant
push and penetration
shoulders’ drive down and swing (of the body)
turn over onto the shoulders with the body stretching out along the pole
turn and crossing over a bar (style depends on the performance of previous phases).

"From the penultimate step to the takeoff step, the vaulter's arms and legs work together. The arms thrust upwards with maximum extension as the takeoff foot thrusts downward to the runway.
At the moment the pole tip makes contact with the back of the box, the vaulter should be coming off the left toe with all of the momentum of the run continuing off the ground (i.e. a long jump takeoff). Upon leaving the ground, the vaulters extended arms recoil back as does the left leg while the chest drives forward (i.e. running and jumping onto a high bar)."
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:12 am

Yes that is all well and good but it is clearer in BTB! Oops - who am I to argue with .........! :o But its all about the position of the left hand on the pole during the run and plant -that sets the whole movement pattern of the left arm up - see page 234.

Just remember that you can intellectualise it all you like when you are wearing your coaches hat - but you must just do it when you are jumping.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

KYLE ELLIS
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:03 am

altius wrote:Yes that is all well and good but it is clearer in BTB! Oops - who am I to argue with .........! :o But its all about the position of the left hand on the pole during the run and plant -that sets the whole movement pattern of the left arm up - see page 234.

Just remember that you can intellectualise it all you like when you are wearing your coaches hat - but you must just do it when you are jumping.


I understand that you want to carry the bottom hand under the pole, so that you can indeed push up during the plant phase. And what do you mean you just have to do it? I did the other day when I was experimenting. :D I have been on a long weird journey this year, and I have tried just about evrything and went to this as it was close to what I used to do in college and what I see in Tim McMichaels videos. Basically putting my old self with the stuff I was doing this year was the magic touch. Turning a push with the arms into a push with the body.

By the way I think it is still possible to get into that position with an incorrect pole carry. Tim carry's the pole with his bottom hand on top of the pole in the last few strides, gets a little under. But he winds up in just about as good as position you can get in when his takeoff is complete. Would you agree or do I need to shut-up and wait for my lecture in Knoxville? :devil: :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awxf8EQ3cmM
Last edited by KYLE ELLIS on Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:30 am

altius wrote:"it hasn’t clicked for me yet". Nor me -we have agreed to disagree on this - but as I have observed elsewhere -who am i to disagree with the coach of an indoor world champion? ...

This is a mouthful. I too have not bought into the 640 model ... yet. I think Roman is brilliant ... like a brilliant scientist that sounds like a mad professor ... his brilliance is in his thoughts and not in his explanations ... so it sometimes gets misinterpreted ... I LOVE his CONTINUOUS CHAIN OF MOTION THEORY ... I can relate to that 100% ... he's dead on ... but on the 640 model I think he may be onto something ... but if he is, he hasn't explained it very well ... despite trying.

I would also say that coaching LoJo was not where he learned his stuff ... and dare I say that LoJo wasn't an indoor WC due to Roman ... I think Roman learned his stuff during his own vaulting career. His best work ... his best contribution to the world of PV ... so far ... was the CONTINUOUS CHAIN OF MOTION THEORY.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:50 am

KYLE ELLIS wrote: Well first off we have never seen anyone else attempt this. ... The time he took it off before he got smacked. Does this tell us something?? I know Roman says its possible, but I will believe it when I see it.
It did prove Romans theory to me that the swing/ pole bend will happen with or without the left hand ... So it can be passive or you can put it to work ...

On this point, I strongly believe that it is possible to bend the pole CORRECTLY with just your top arm. It's a BELIEF of mine ... rather than a FACT that I've personally experienced ... becuz I haven't actually PHYSICALLY done it ... as Tim has done it. I haven't actually purposely kept my bottom hand OFF the pole whilst my top hand BENT the pole.

But I've been so close to doing this ... short of removing my bottom hand ... that I KNOW it's entirely possible. I'm not going to say that you will finish this vault PROPERLY ... becuz it will put you SLIGHTLY off balance ... but in terms of proving that the pole will bend NATURALLY with just the pressure of the top hand ... I've been there and done that! Believe me ... it's 100% plausible AND possible. The point is that the bottom arm can be used JUST for balance ... but if it's NOT used for balance, then you ust won't be able to finish the vault properly.

But if your purpose of the expirement ... as was Tim's ... was solely to see if the POLE would BEND properly, I think Tim PROVED that ... to his own personal amazement. This is after an entire career where he thought you had to push ... just a bit ... to get the pole bending in the right direction.

I think this is the biggest difference between KE's interpretation of what to do on takeoff and mine ... I purposely AVOIDED putting any weight on my bottom hand at all ... push, pull, or ANY weight in ANY direction ... I just used it for BALANCE. My theory was ... and I think it paid off big-time for me ... is that the more weight (pressure) on the top hand, then the more "natural" the bend would be ... and the greater the arc ... since any pressure by the bottom arm would alter the arc of the bend. Besides, it's passive resistance ... no matter WHAT direction the pressure is in.

I will say this ... don't try this at home! If you don't have the shoulder strength to do this, then you could injure yourself. But if you have the hand, arm, and shoulder strength ... I'm talking about elite PV level strength ... then this is optimal technique.

I do not believe that my lack of pressure with the bottom arm was a mistake ... I believe it was one of my secret weapons. The only regret I have re my technique was that I paused in the split position (aka the pre-stretch) ... on some jumps (not my best ones) ... when I should have passed THRU the split (the pre-stretch). That's all.

This is all directly in line with ALL of the Laws of Physics ... not just some weird interpretation of them.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:16 am

Tim was unsuccesful in pulling his left hand off before the takeoff was complete. It may be possible on a tiny pole, but I don't think there is any way in hell you could do it on a competition size pole like they talked about. I need to see it!
Here is the video for those who aren't forum rats/ losers like me. http://www.treemo.com/users/tmcmicha/ch ... set/31091/
Notice that he didn't take his hand off the pole before the takeoff was complete, maybe because like you said Kirk it is passively balancing.
Now what I agree with Roman and disagree with Kirk on is being passive with the bottom arm druing the swing/ inversion. Tim showed us that after the takeoff the continuation of the pole bend and swing is possible with one hand. So why be passive with the bottom hand if we can speed up the swing with the bottome arm??? This will add energy into the system, increase pole= shortening chord= faster pole rotation= BIGGER POLES AND BIGGER PUSH OFF. I don't know how you would disagree with this.

Ok time to go to bed and stop being a PVP stalker while watching NCAA basketball. Hurt my back disc golfing so this is what I have been doing all night :confused:

PS- I am pretty sure that Tim still believed the left arm played a role in the inital phase of the takeoff even after the experiment.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby EIUvltr » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:41 am

vaultman18 wrote:What is a "pocket" ? And why would you want to be in it? I think Roman would ask this too. :P


Because Earl Bell says so, wanna fight about it?
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:54 am

EIUvltr wrote:Because Earl Bell says so, wanna fight about it?


Are you sure he was talking about pole vault and not blue jeans? I know my jeans have pockets but I have never seen any in my pole vaulting. :D
And no I prefer not to fight about anything. Unless of course by fight you mean argue our points on PVP. Then maybe.

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:20 am

"And no I prefer not to fight about anything". Thats amazing but true. As the descendant of a long line of gun totin hillbillies who would shoot you as god as look at you vaultman18 is an amazing fella - even votes Democrat.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby PVstudent » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:55 am

Kyle,

Isinbayeva's interview is very misleading because even "she", at that time, appeared to me to not have understand Petrov (perhaps it is the problem of speaking in english about something subtle of a very technical nature that requires precise execution and timing as well as perfect arm, trunk and leg synchronization!). I make this comment because I have visited, stayed for months at a time over different years and studied Petrov in action as a coach.

The art of performing the technique is for the vaulter to allow the impetus of athlete and pole to move the combined system upwards and forwards whilst placing the vaulter's body under tensile stretching force. The subsequent recoil from the muscles initiates the explosive swing of the vaulter in the first phase of the pole support prior to maximum bend in such a manner that not only does the pole bend but also so that it will continue to rotate in the same plane as the direction of total system at toe-off.

The training drills used by Petrov are to teach the coordination of the shoulder girdle and shoulder joints to work in conjunction with the abdominal core under active eccentric action as the upper torso moves upwards and forwards towards a position located under the lower grip hand. Both hands must be gripping the pole strongly to prevent the vaulter's body from going into any lateral deviation due to hand positions on the pole and or lack of lateral spinal muscle fixation strength. Hence the lats and spinal lateral flexors/extensors become critical to this "dynamic stabilizing" of the trunk in the lateral plane via the arms and shoulders.

The vaulter will experience a feeling that the triceps and latissimus dorsi of the lower arm are working very hard. The subtlety is because the contractile force being delivered by these muscles, to produce lower arm elbow and shoulder joint torques, are of less magnitude compared to those created by the pole in the direction opposite to the forward - upward motion of the vaulter. Timing and grading of the muscle actions around the shoulder and elbow of the lower grip arm is critical to allowing the vaulter's chest to move upward and forwards with respect to the hands and yet still maintain both pole bend and penetration without dissipating energy in the lateral plane (sideways). The flexing at both the elbow and shoulder of the lower grip arm is not passive but under the active eccentric control by primarily the triceps and the latissimus dorsi muscles.

At the end of the range of motion induced on the vaulter by the pole these same muscles undergo rapid active turnaround to produce (muscle stretch augmented, high velocity) powerful concentric active action of the explosive whole body "whip" leg swing. When the muscle action turnaround timing is correctly performed, spatially and temporally, the pole vaulter total system will continue to rotate around the pole pivot point in the box as well as "penetrate' forwards and upwards towards the vertical plane of the bar.

Petrov in the video of drills is attempting to use the inertial characteristics of the vaulter at toe off and the dynamics of vaulter pole impact to optimize pole bend and penetration whilst setting the vaulter up to continue to perform rapid useful work during the pole support phases of the vault.

Look more critically at the exercises and then relate them to the situation for the vaulter at take-off foot toe off. Then I think you will begin to understand the dynamic contribution of the lower arm (arm of the lower grip hand) to the setting up of the stable base upon which the "whip" swing is established.
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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby dj » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:20 pm

hey

i haven't completely followed all this thread.. but a couple of things come "out"...

one.. the front grip under the pole serves a very different roll than "to press up" at the plant..

that roll is it's the only way to carry and have the pole in the right "balance" as to not effect the run and planting "on time"...

i have spent a lot of time going over this with vaulters.. changing everyone of them if they were not carrying this way.. (described by Petrov)

first.. keeping the front wrist chest high and the top hand grip waist high with the elbow bent 90 degrees is the best way to "make you", because of physics, to plant on time or not at all. the top grip can "speed" up the plant if the "drop" is a little slow or it can "slow" slightly if you are early.. by doing this instead of "holding the pole up with the wrist on top" the weight does not shift to the front and force the vaulter to lean back..

Kirk
in the 70's/early 80's... vaulters were taught what is now called a free takeoff.. i have film of a Tully jump in 1984, his 19 or 19-2 in the trials that shows how he was taught by Tellez.. (I may have emailed it to you.. It looks very much like the clip that was posted of Bubka from Neovault.. the one with the talk about “free takeoff”.. I hope to have ladyvol put Tully and Bubka on a Dartfish overlay and compare.. the angles seemed to be filmed from the same side angle..) the takeoff has to be “out” at least to vertical with the top hand... you should "attack" through the pit toward the back and let the pole "pick you up".. SWING as fast as you can.. no pressure with the bottom hand.. the whole swing was around the top hand and shoulder girdle.. line up with the pole and come vertically off the top..

dj

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Re: takeoff angle and beyond

Unread postby altius » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:37 pm

"you should "attack" through the pit toward the back and let the pole "pick you up". Here we go again - I thought things had quietened down but obviously not. I dont think either Petrov or Bubka thought of 'attacking toward the BACK of the pit and letting the pole pick pick them up.' Rather they believed in moving the pole always -of driving it up and forwards at take off - just as the stiff polers did/had to. And I thought we were on the same page dj! But life is strange. ;)
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