It all begins with the first step!

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
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altius
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Re: It all begins with the first step!

Unread postby altius » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:16 pm

Why not simply -and I mean simply - do what the best vaulters in history have done???? Why continually little flourished?? And no should should not be looking at check marks at any point in the run = the six step marker is for the coach not the athlete. :yes:
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Re: It all begins with the first step!

Unread postby dj » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:53 pm

hey

i'm putting together what i have already written on this with some added comments.. have a meet this morning but will get back to this.. yes Allan doing anything other than what Petrov has stated is incorrect..

dj

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Re: It all begins with the first step!

Unread postby dj » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:39 am

Physics!!

This is why you do not skip, hop, dance or swing the pole around at the start.

Petrov..
It is preferable to launch into acceleration the single solid vaulter/pole system while controlling it through the left hand. Various changes in the rate of the movements, pole position, irregular running often occur as a result of the vaulter’s attempts to start run with various jumps, imitating the start in long jump and triple jump. All of this gives rise to so many irregularities and errors that sometimes it is hard to understand the reason for the movements.
There are other ways of starting the run – 4 to 6 measured walking steps taken to the starting mark, with the pole held in the same position as for the acceleration run, which is uniform in its acceleration similar to high jumpers who start the run-up with strides. Thus their transition from walking to running is inconspicuous and natural.

Concentration before the vault, a desire to vault and confidence that this very vault will be the best are often the decisive factors for successful performance.
If the top of the pole is held a little to the left (from the run-up line), the left hand will be positioned in a more comfortable and elevated position and the whole vaulter/pole system will become more compact (without shifting forward or to the right).

During the whole run, including the pole drop, the left hand is held high enough and on the same level (chest level).
The left hand provides the direction and the bearing point around which the drop and the plant take place. If this is the case, then during the run it must remain motionless, positioned higher than the left elbow at all times.

Any motions of the hand (forward, backward, down or sideways) will break the single vaulter/pole system.

Concentration before the vault, a desire to vault and confidence that this very vault will be the best are often the decisive factors for successful performance.
If the top of the pole is held a little to the left (from the run-up line) the left hand will be positioned in a more comfortable and elevated position, and the whole vaulter/pole system will become more compact (without shifting forward or to the right).


I have actually explained several times before why you don’t want to start with skips or anything other than what Petrov has stated which is based on physics and from my own experience both in the long jump and the pole vault.. more so in the pole vault.

dj..Side bar disclaimer.. and with absolutely no disrespect to Petrov I did learn something in the first 23 years of my vaulting and coaching career and did do a little work with three world record holders, several NCAA, American and Canadian champions prior to ever seeing Bubka and prior to hearing of Petrov and his work. I think I heard a rumor that Petrov studied Roberts, Bell, Tully, Issakson, Volkov.. and more.. coaches learn from the thoroughbreds and we often put something into their “system” that other athletes and coaches find to be correct and helpful.


Of course skipping can work.. IF… “if a bullfrog had wings he wouldn’t bust his own butt every time he hopped.” Aunt Minnie.

Earl skipped and has said he skipped “twice” on his world record.. I don’t know.. maybe.. I don’t have film and missed that meet. I do know that most of the time when he did skip he “skipped” correctly and with the correct foot forward. But when he was jacked up it often caused the run to be off, sometimes he could adjust and some times he could not. the compremise was a set distance from start to "skip".....

You should not skip or use a “run in” that you can’t control the distance and speed of.. and here is why:

Of course consistency in the start is the first main reason. It is very difficult to control the amount of speed “to” the mark because of the adrenalin from a competition in itself. If you have more speed “to” a check mark on some jumps, but not all, your speed will determine longer or shorter steps after the check mark making your run inconsistent. Why do long jumpers have there best jumps on the “little bitty” fouls?? And why did they foul if they started on the same mark?? Speed… the speed allowed them to jump farther but it also gave them a slightly longer stride which caused them to foul…….

Second the skip can and generally does throw off the pole carry and the the “single solid vaulter/pole system” as Petrov call it. As a right handed vaulter you should grip and hold the pole the way Petrov describes it.. put the left foot forward and the right foot back and step with the right. Physics>>> if you start this way walking or running the pole will go, in balance, with you.. if you start, as a right hander, with the right foot forward and step with the left foot first, 90% of the time, you will swing the pole forward trying to find balance, right hand to left foot style and create a problem. The more excited you are on a vault the more you swing.. once you start swinging the pole and the arms you are out of the ”the single solid vaulter/pole system” and into a bad run. A Bad run leads to a stretch, late plant and under take off. The same with the skip.. the right hand vaulters that skip with the “left” foot in front actually (most times) “reposition” the pole into the “single solid vaulter/pole system” which is what Earl would do. It wasn’t the “single solid vaulter/pole system’ that was Earl’s problem with the skip, it was the inconsistency.

Look at the run that Tully has on the 18-6 jump that was posted for me by Kirk. Tully and I “created” this run. It produced the most consistent and fastest run of his career. The two walking steps kept him for getting “jacked up” in a meet and messing up the first two steps, which is the most critical point because of the ‘varied’ amount of push that can be created at the start. After the two walking steps you will notice he accelerates from that point on. No attempt to ”control” anything other than to build up to max speed. He called it his 747 take off run .. step..step and pull back on the throttle, and this run was before Bubka and Petrov.

You have to start and run the way Petrov states it or you are doing things incorrect and will never reach your maximum potential.

I have said many times on here that several Americans could have jumped a world record if they only would correct the run.. I think the ones that didn’t attempt to correct did not understand what I have just tried to explain about physics.

dj

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Re: It all begins with the first step!

Unread postby Erica » Sun May 10, 2009 9:12 pm

Questions for those who use a speed mark:
What are you supposed to do if you look down at your speed mark and you're off??? :dazed:
Do you analyze how much you are off by, and adjust accordingly on all the following steps? Or do you just decide if you are only off by x amount, you keep going, but if you are off by more than that, you start over? Or is it just a target to remind you to push out the back? Does it trigger you to "go"? How much processing of data do you do during the approach?

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Re: It all begins with the first step!

Unread postby altius » Sun May 10, 2009 9:29 pm

"What are you supposed to do if you look down at your speed mark and you're off???
Do you analyze how much you are off by, and adjust accordingly on all the following steps"

You cannot analyse and adjust - that process is simply too slow. The steering process from the cue mark - which you should not even be AWARE of - is intuitive.

On this topic I can only say that you must eliminate all variables - personal peccadillos to coin a phrase - and do what Bubka did. Disappointed in you Brian -I thought you wanted to improve - yet here you are adding your own flourishes - NO NO NO!
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Re: It all begins with the first step!

Unread postby bel142 » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:40 am

In terms of walking verses running there is a pendulum movement that happens with the hips when walking. As stride reaches maximum the hips are at their lowest point. However the opposite is true with running at that same split the hips have an inverted pendulum.

Now setting aside the fact that an inconsistent skip can throw you off at take off, the advantages of it are possible as such. (I am just playing devils advocate for the sake of being a jerk)

When a skip is not used and the vaulter starts from a standing position the first step (generally) still allows for the hips to be placed into the pendulum rather than the running inverted pendulum. If we are talking about the elite vaulters where they are trying to maximize energy usage and transition, this is one area that is very reasonable when thinking about the biomechanics of running.

Using a skip allows to increase momentum and perhaps eliminates actually having to transition in the run from hip (walk) pendulum to inverted (run) pendulum. With the skip/hop (or what have you) the vaulter starts and maintains the whole run with the inverted pendulum, this will allow for easier increase in speed and saving of energy lost at that walk to run transition at the beginning of the approch.

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Re: It all begins with the first step!

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:24 pm

Brilliant!

However, to play the devils devils advocate, with proper high knee action from the very first step, should we not theoretically have inverted hip action (run) from the very start, thus making any inconsistencies you speak of invalid? Unless you WALK your first few steps, you should have an inverted hip action the entire run.

Also, how much initial momentum do you require before transitioning from the walk to run? essentially, At what point does walking become running? The answer is that the biomechanics of running and walking are entirely different, you can run (jog) slowly or walk quickly, so there is no answer. that means there is no speed or momentum cut off point. In that sense, as long as you begin RUNNING biomechanically from the first step, there would be no walking hip pendulum and therefore no inconsistency in the run. The momentum from taking a step backwards before your run should suffice.
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Re: It all begins with the first step!

Unread postby bel142 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:22 pm

Wow, July to October no response I was starting to think no one wanted to play with me...

Your notion about taking a back step first is correct. BUT Research laboratory results have shown that humans generally start the walk to run transition just about 3 meters a second. Past that threshold if walking continues it becomes more and more energy costly (more or less) linearly when compared to speed. At some point running is more energy efficient because when running starts energy is stored in the tendons of the muscle, like a slinky, and helps with gait/stride transition. Hence it is more energy efficient. Meanwhile below that threshold walking is more energy efficient.

From an analytical standpoint running is classified when stride and gait has an areal phase. The inverted pendulum is reached when the area phase is at is maximum height. So jogging can be thrown into both categories hence it is not really a gait pattern. If the first step is a full running step with an areal phase then indeed the pendulum is inverted...


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