WC 2015 - Beijing

News about pole vault competitions that occur outside the US and international pole vaulters.
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KirkB
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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:06 pm

canag wrote: is [Barber] using 520 or maybe even 530 poles ? :confused:

He's using 5.38 (17-7) Altius poles, with a grip of about 5.30 (17-4)!

That's some grip! :yes:

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby hardflex » Wed Aug 26, 2015 5:18 pm

Nice video there PVStudent. First thing that jumps out at me is that Murer is gripping much higher, on perhaps 157 poles?

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:42 pm

hardflex wrote:Post by KirkB » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:06 pm
canag wrote: is [Barber] using 520 or maybe even 530 poles ? He's using 5.38 (17-7) Altius poles, with a grip of about 5.30 (17-4)!


I thought Viktor Chistiakov's customised 5.30m pole length was extreme. Shawnacy Barber I do not believe is taller than Viktor and gripping at 5.30m would be exceptionally high. The source of your data on Barber's vaulting pole grip length and pole length would be helpful to verify your statement. His runway speed also gives me some doubt about the data.

hardflex wrote:hardflex » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:18 pm
Nice video there PVStudent. First thing that jumps out at me is that Murer is gripping much higher, on perhaps 157 poles


I think it is more likely to be 4.60m based on the relationship of the pole lengths shown in the images at release. Yarisley Silva appears to be using a shorter but much stiffer pole, given the relative speed of the pole recoil between these vaulters. This is just my opinion and I have no factual data to back up my opinion.

Both vaulters show technical excellence in the execution of their vaults. Women's pole vault is going to be very exciting during the lead up to Rio!
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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:13 am

KirkB wrote: He's using 5.38 (17-7) Altius poles, with a grip of about 5.30 (17-4)!
PVstudent wrote: I thought Viktor Chistiakov's customised 5.30m pole length was extreme. Shawnacy Barber I do not believe is taller than Viktor and gripping at 5.30m would be exceptionally high. The source of your data on Barber's vaulting pole grip length and pole length would be helpful to verify your statement. His runway speed also gives me some doubt about the data.

I understand your skipticism, PVStudent, and I was also surprised that it was so high. But my source is VERY reliable.

This is a special order pole, with a 13.2 flex. On their website, Altius only advertise poles up to 5.30.

You can probably see from the vids that he's gripping about 3" from the top. So I think the pole length is the only stat in question. Trust me, it's a 5.38 pole.

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawnacy_Barber, Shawn is 1.91 (6-3) tall, and weighs 79 kg (174 pounds), but I have good reason to believe that he was closer to 180 pounds at the WC 2015 in Beijing.

According to "Who's Who in PV 3" (Gerard Dumas 2005), Viktor Chistiakov was 2.02m (6-7.5) and 92 kg (203 pounds).

I agree that Barber is quite a bit shorter than Chistiakov and doesn't have RL-ish speed (did Chistiakov? :confused: ), but grips of elites have gone up a bit since 1999 (the only year that Chistiakov cleared 5.90). Barber is gripping higher because he's vaulting higher! :idea:

Perhaps pole technology has also improved since then, allowing vaulters to grip higher? I'm not sure. :confused:

Another factor could be that Barber simply plants more efficiently than Chistiakov? Again, I'm not sure. :confused:

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby canag » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:11 am

A (long) video recap for the women competition starting at 480: https://youtu.be/m3qmLV3H7sk
Very happy to see Silva and Murer peaking at the right moment, with heights around PB for each! It's sad for Jenn Suhr but I'm sure she'll be very competitive in Rio next year (remember London?)
Regarding pole lengths, my take is that Murer uses 475 poles (as Suhr it seems) and Silva uses 460 poles (but grips only 435) with 14 steps run-up, but as Kendricks she uses very stiff poles and gets a big push-off.

I'm abashed by your info on Barber's poles, but I felt he was using poles longer than the others. I remark that Kendricks and Barber (and their coaches) have been thinking outside the box and experimenting with grip and flex parameters for the last two seasons. It is very interesting that they choose different directions: Barber tries to maximize the grip while Kendricks tries to maximize the push-off. As a result the former use softer poles and has worked a lot on the timing and form for the drive and swing phases in order to be able to uses those huge grips, while the later uses shorter and stiff poles and swings as fast as possible before the pole recoils. It looks that Barber's way of thinking gives him more consistency at high bars, but it could be less immune to difficult weather conditions. Anyway, having young vaulters trying new things (with success!) is always a good sign and I think will maybe give some fresh air in the way people think about elite pole vault technique ;)

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Aug 27, 2015 2:30 pm

canag wrote: ... having young vaulters trying new things (with success!) is always a good sign and I think will maybe give some fresh air in the way people think about elite pole vault technique ;)
:yes:
Another way to look at this is that Barber presently has a 0.9 m (35.4") pushoff, and needs only a 1.1 m (43.3") pushoff with his 5.30 grip to tie RL's WR of 6.16. This pushoff is doable (over time). If I recall, the best pushoff for elite vaulters has been ~49".

However, it's unlikely that he will freeze his grip at 5.30. I expect that given his success with raising it in the past, he will continue to raise it as he increases his PR over 6.00.

Please check my math. I could easily have made a mistake in my calculations. I based it on his PR of 5.93 (not his WC 5.90).

Does anyone doubt that he will eventually clear 6.00? :confused:

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:16 pm

Kirk, let me first preface this by saying that I am definitely a fan and believer of Shawn, and I expect to see him clear 6m soon.

However, I must disagree, not with your math, but with your premise. I am admittedly entering the realm of speculation here, but I would imagine that Shawn technique and timing revolves around the idea of pushing grip, and as such, his pushoff can't really be compared to someone who vaults differently, like Kendricks. If we assume that they are the same speed (I have no reason to believe they are, it's just a thought experiment) I don't think you can say that "Barber can have the same pushoff as Kendricks" or "Kendricks can hold as high as Barber," because they employ somewhat differing technical models. Kendricks can probably hold higher but wouldn't be able to bend as stiff of poles or necessarily swing quite as fast, and so I'm sure he feels his current pole selection is optimal for his technique. Barber is the opposite. I imagine that he would have trouble rolling over a 5.30 grip while swinging fast enough, and on a pole stiff enough, to give him a 120cm or more pushoff.

I remember hearing similar stories of Bubka holding higher in practice, but ultimately feeling like he wasn't as effective with the higher grip. It's more about optimizing the grip and stiffness rather than maximizing either.

That being said, I have no reason to believe that Barber can't get a much higher pushoff or that kendricks can't hold higher, I'm only saying that elite vaulters who are doing one of those very well are typically sacrificing the other to some extent, so it's not as simple as just saying "well other vaulters have done it, so he can too."

Forgive the change of topic, but I think Agapit's premise with the 640 model (whether you agree with it or not) was to use a technical model that didn't sacrifice either. That is to say you weren't delaying the swing to bend the pole and you weren't stuck on smaller poles to accommodate a faster swing.

I'm curious to see what form the improvements take for these young elite vaulters (Holzdeppe included), and what changes to strategy or meet management (if any) Lavillenie makes as well between now and next year. It is a very exciting time for the Pole Vault!
-Nick

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:01 pm

:yes: Nick, I actually agree with everything you said.

If Barber was 30 years old, then I would say he's stuck with his current technique. But he's only 21, and he has said publicly that his technique is by no means perfected yet.

I believe that with good technical adjustments (over several years), he will find the best balance of grip and technical excellence to maximize his PR. There is no question that his technique must improve for his PR to substantially improve! He cannot just keep raising his grip.

As a side point here, I think his double leg swing is absolutely essential to his technique. Although Bubka had a single leg swing (and did very well with it), I now believe that this was a technical mistake of Bubka's (and mine), and a double leg swing is the way to heavier poles and higher grips.

As you say, with ALL the current 5.80+ vaulters (and after a 19 year dry spell between SB and RL WRs), the future of PV is bright! :idea:

This is also in agreement with what Canag said earlier ...
canag wrote: ... I think [this] will maybe give some fresh air in the way people think about elite pole vault technique ;)

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:39 am

I'm surprised to see you say that Kirk, but I really admire your open mindedness about new technique :yes: I don't know how I feel about double leg swings, but I think it sets a good example to be willing to continually learn and try and find the best technique rather than just try to be right all the time which is pretty common on message boards (I'm no exception).

Does anyone know how fast Barber and Kendricks are? Or at least what their speed is at the takeoff. They're both a bit taller and have a reasonably long stride, so it's pretty deceptive. It seems like 9.5 m/s is the minimum for the 6m club (based on the table on this site). If either or both of them are above that, then I think it bodes very well for the next several years. I would love to see Lavillenie and Barber both clear 6m in the same meet (maybe Rio!!). Has that ever happened before? 2 vaulters over 6m in a competition?
-Nick

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby canag » Fri Aug 28, 2015 11:07 am

IAmTheWalrus wrote: Has that ever happened before? 2 vaulters over 6m in a competition?


Good question, I've had a look at IAAF website and the answer it yes, three times actually!
Sestriere 1995: Bubka and Brits both 600 (Bubka wins)
Fukuoka 1997: Bubka 605 Tarasov 600
Athens 1999: Tarasov 605 Hartwig 600 (and Markov and Lobinger 595!)

By the way, Murer with 4.85 just broke the WR for height achieved without winning. Before her it was Rogowska with 4.83 in 2005.

Canag

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:58 pm

I haven't heard exact numbers like Kirk has, but I have also heard that Barber is gripping insanely high on totally custom poles...

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Re: WC 2015 - Beijing

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:53 pm

IAmTheWalrus wrote:I'm surprised to see you say that Kirk, but I really admire your open mindedness about new technique :yes: I don't know how I feel about double leg swings, but I think it sets a good example to be willing to continually learn and try and find the best technique rather than just try to be right all the time which is pretty common on message boards (I'm no exception).

It wasn't until RL's 6.16 WR that my eyes started to open re the double leg swing. And Barber's success with it this year was the last nail in the coffin for me.

But don't misunderstand me. The double leg swing MUST be with a free takeoff, and must NOT be "lazy". That is, I think you still must drive the lead knee up on takeoff, THEN drop it, THEN quickly raise it again, to accelerate the swing. This is not easy to do. It requires phenomenal strength in the lead leg (something that RL and SB both seem to have). So all other aspects of the Petrov Model, but with a double leg swing.

For mere mortals, and vaulters under 5.50 or so (including all women), I still think that a single leg swing is better. I just don't think that you have enough time to swing with both legs effectively over sub 5.50 (or so) bars. With 5.50+, there seems to be sufficient time to swing with both legs.

Incidentally, Shawn's father (George) has built up quite a reputation for himself as a vaulter and university coach (long before Shawn was a teenager). He calls his technique the Barber Model, so I guess that's what Shawn's technique is called. George understands the application of the Laws of Physics very well, which is why I have full confidence that the Shawn Barber team will figure out how to get over 6.00 m and beyond. :idea:

Kirk
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