Isinbayeva is out sometimes

[dj]

good morning,

by the way i got some numbers from Isi's run from prelim, great jump to final.. no height

at 4 steps from the plant/TO she was 12 to 18 inches (a foot to a foot and a half!!!!!) OUT in the final when she NHed..

How can a coach or athlete not be aware of this and adjust????

you guys can poopoo... my chart all you want but if the approach run made me loose a million bucks i think i would know it... and fix it!!!!

i think this is my last "free" note aboutthe run.. i'm going to set up my own web site and charge for on line coaching...

see ya..

dj

[KYLE ELLIS]

Well I hope you learn to take the vaulter's height into account for your chart and learn to adjust it. If you get some 5ft-5'6 kids out there using the grip to mid chart they are going to be all kinds of screwed up.

[rainbowgirl28]

Split this into a new thread.

Also let's keep this discussion Isinbayeva related. Kyle, find a mid-mark thread to debate height to mid-mark.

You can ignore DJ's chart, Isi was hitting farther out on her 4 step mid in the finals in Berlin than she normally does. A foot to a foot and a half is what I heard as well. I don't know how her numbers correspond to the chart normally, I just know that she was off where she normally is.

[charlie]

I'm not posting this because i am a fan of David,(i am) Just sharing EXPERIENCE ! Have 24 vaulters and use nothing but Davids chart- From a 5th grade girl 4'8 to a senior 6'2. Have never varied 4" forward or back and ALL my kids Never have problems with step. If they learn to run properly with LIFT, they will line up with Davids chart. The 5h grade girl has been 9' and the senior has been 15'9"!!! Certainly not the greatest but also pretty respectable!

[KYLE ELLIS]

I don't coach any world beaters, but nearly all of them have a free takeoff. Do you go by grip or takeoff?? For example I have a 5'1 girl that girl that grips 11'2 and hits 30'0 (4l mid), according to DJ's chart she should be at 27!! I can't imagine how this is possible since her stride frequency is very quick towards the end of her run. Dj's chart works for me because I am 6'0ft tall.
I don't know how anyone can argue against this statement, keeping in mind correlation between speed and long jump ability. Please explain it to me if you can.

A person with a 7'10 reach grips 14'0, and a person with a 6'10 reach holds 14ft.
Based on their grips the 7'10 reach guy needs to takeoff from approx. 11'6.
Based on their grips the 6'10 reach guy needs to takeoff from approx. 12'9. + less pole angle
So using DJ's "grip" correlation chart they both need to hit around 47'6

For the 7'10 reach guy 47'6MID-11'6TO= 36ft
For the 6'10 reach guy 47'6MID-12'9TO= 34'9ft ----- less room= shorter strides= less speed

How far you can takeoff from correlates to how fast you can run under control at the end of the run. Now call me crazy but the shorter guy who has to takeoff further away and is at a disadvantage with pole angle, needs to have more speed than the taller guy!!! According to my chart the 6'10 reach guy needs to be at 51'3 to have enough room and speed to achieve a free takeoff. And 51'3 is no where near 47'6. I gave you guys my chart and it has worked beautifully!! I give the props to DJ because I simply borrowed his chart and took height into consideration.

Can anyone disprove what I just said or make a good arguement? Instead of just saying I used the chart and it magically works for me? Was anything I said wrong and has anyone tried it? I have been studying my vaulters and vaulters from other teams and my chart works!!

[charlie]

Everybody has there own take on things, i was just sharing my results and there is certainly no MAGIC in it, true facts!

[IAmTheWalrus]

What if you just subtracted the takeoff from the mids for DJs chart, and just measured the mid as distance from the ideal takeoff point. In other words, if DJ's chart says that you should have a 49' mid and takeoff at 12', then your (lets call it mid*) would be 49-12 = 37'. So if you have someone who is a standard deviation or two away from average height who ideal takeoff for a 14'7 grip is lets say 12'6, then they would have a mid, in this case of 49'6". It's still (I think) still based on the same science and observation that DJ used, namely that the distance covered per stride is based on speed, the only thing that is changing is the endpoint.

Now I have put no where near the amount of time and effort into this that DJ has (or Kyle for that matter) and have just started using the chart myself, so if I am wrong, then I'm wrong and mean no disrespect to you guys. Just thought that perhaps this could move things along in the right direction. If this is stuff that has already been talked about and rejected, just ignore it.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Walrus you have the right idea (according to me). The revised chart I made was built around takeoff, and that a vaulter needs a minimum amount of speed to takeoff from that point. So the way I use my chart is that my vaulters need to be within a 6 inch range (on to 6 inches out)..
I added in reach to make things easier with my vaulters, and all I have to do is find the column for their reach to determine their mid and takeoff.
All I am saying is use the takeoff instead of grip and DJ's chart is perfect.

[dj]

Hey

I actually didn’t post to start another feud over “who” is most right or most wrong…

What confounds me, is that this happens to the world record holder and it was NOT caught or changed… how many times did Bubka do the same and have a bad day??!!… and how many times does it happen to 100’s of world class jumpers, that didn’t have Bubka’s ability to adjust without coaching???

If you don’t use a “check” mark or know how to use the check mark you have, it makes no difference what you use… and if you actually knew how to use a “mid” you wouldn’t need to “change the numbers” on paper to match anyone/everyone… That “change” should come at the pit, during a jump session and with the adjustments coming on each jump (only when needed!!! ) based on how they ran, cadence, speed, posture… etc.. . a minor change/adjustment should come from coaching and not from a chart.

All anyone needs to know is a mark “close” to the speed to grip of their/your vaulter and then coach…

These “debates” just convince me more and more that most of you don’t know how and why it is used.

dj

[KYLE ELLIS]

Such ego's on the board lately
I understand how the chart works, and you talk about giving them an idea of where their mid should be "about". Well like I pointed out earler it won't even be close if they are alot shorter than 6ft!! I garuntee that if they run correctly they should be within a foot of the chart I made, doesn't mean they have to use it to the T, but its just a more accurate version of the chart you made DJ.

[dj]

hye

i have no problem with you or anyone else using your chart...

use it - publish it - justify it..

dj

ps i have asked Becca to remove my chart AND The my MID thread several times.. i think that would be easiest since i don't have the time or patients left to discus it on here...

[IAmTheWalrus]

That hardly seems necessary DJ. Don't let the frustration of repeating arguments diminish the importance of your contribution to the pole vault community and this site. People are going to disagree and remain steadfast in their refusal to believe your chart. Likewise people will use your chart incorrectly no matter how many times or how well you explain it. There's not much you can do about this other than not spend too much time worrying about it, and focus your attention on the people who really do want to understand your chart. Though I can't speak for Kyle, I can say that I am trying to better understand the chart (More specifically the run as a whole) and though I understand how athletes of varying heights will conform to the same stride pattern provided they are running at the same speed, I do encounter some confusion as to how the chart takes into account their varying takeoff points. This is about improving athlete's and coach's understanding of the sport. You have already made a great contribution to that, don't make this petty or about you (either of you guys). No one gets a prize for making the best mid chart, and if I just left and gave up because I kept reliving the same argument, I'd be single.