Weight lifting low reps high weights?

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altius
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Re: Weight lifting low reps high weights?

Unread postby altius » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:41 pm

"I cannot agree that it is a good idea to discourage anyone from weight training.

Not discouraging ANYONE from weight training old son - just suggesting that if they want to improve their pole vaulting they should concentrate on technique rather than strength at this point in their development. All too often weight training is recommended because folk - teacher coaches - know something about that area and very little about the drills needed to help athletes become better vaulters. It is is used as a soft option.

"To the contrary, an intelligent system of progressive resistance training can set the course for a lifetime of healthy living." So would encouraging them not to smoke, do drugs and to include progressive cardiovascular exercise in some form or other in their lifestyle.

"The many benefits of weight training are well documented." As a former coach of international calibre athletes in the shot, discus, javelin decathlon and heptathlon as well as the pole vault, I could probably write another book on that!

Coaching is about priorities -if everything is important, nothing is important. With youngsters in the pole vault the focus should be on technique, technique and yet more technique.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Weight lifting low reps high weights?

Unread postby VaultPurple » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:02 pm

Altius, how do you think people are training in high school?

From everything you have ever said about weight training I get the feeling you think that the pole vaulters that ask for advice about pole vaulting are going to go lift weights during their track practices instead of pole vaulting and doing drills.

Most high schoolers I have seen are only weight training on their own at night when they go home after practices or during weight training class in high school. None of these are times they could be doing drills. I get what you are saying about drills being the priority, but I just don't think there are too many high school kids out there that are going to go lift weights instead of pole vaulting, just mainly because they are pole vaulting because that is the fun part.

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Re: Weight lifting low reps high weights?

Unread postby altius » Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:55 pm

"Altius, how do you think people are training in high school?"

On the basis of what I see in the clips posted here and on Utube, it is clear that few athletes - and I assume that if they post video they are pretty committed athletes - are doing enough to improve fundamental elements of their technique -the carry,run and plant for example. All of these can be improved through simple repetitive practice carried out with almost any old pole or pipe. They can be done anywhere anytime -and at home -no pad is needed - nor even a sand pit. I am simply trying to get this notion accepted as a priority. In my experience at dozens of camps throughout the US over the past six years I saw not a single athlete whose performance would be improved more by weight training that by repetition of key drills drills.

Lets be clear here - I coined the phrase "What is technically desirable must be physically possible", so I understand the importance of strength, power, speed and flexibility in track and field. With the heavy throws, weight training must be given a high priority because without sufficient strength the athlete cannot drive out of the power position no matter how skilful they might be. With young vaulters it all is about priorities. IF the ONLY possibility is weight training then by all means fill your spare time doing that but otherwise do drills and develop physical capacity through dynamic methods - repetitive run up work with the pole, sand pit jumps, long jumping and plyometrics, high bar and/or rings trying to replicate/simulate elements of vault technique. So for example if you do not have a high bar at home get one up asap.

Nothing more to add to this debate so hey - keep on truckin - dont let me get in the way of folk pumpin iron. Enjoy!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Weight lifting low reps high weights?

Unread postby bel142 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:53 am

The human body responds differently to different types of training. Body builders are training differently than Olympic power lifters (or pole vaulters), both are lifting, but both are lifting differently. Furthermore, you shouldn't just train one way, the body needs change over time as the season goes on you are going to train differently... Here is a general guide, this is straight out of the NSCA book.

Hypertrophy and endurance stage of training - 50-75% of 1rm @ 3-6 sets, 10 - 20 reps
Basic Strength - 80 - 90% of 1rm @ 3-5 sets, 4-8 reps
Strength/power - 75-95% of 1rm @ 3-5 sets, 2-5 reps
Peaking - >93% of 1rm @ 1-3 sets, 1-3 reps
Maintenance - 80 - 85% of 1rm @ 2-3 sets, 6-8 reps

From page 511 - Table 19.1 - Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning - 3rd ed.

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Re: Weight lifting low reps high weights?

Unread postby professor » Fri Jun 17, 2011 2:05 am

bel142 wrote:The human body responds differently to different types of training. Body builders are training differently than Olympic power lifters (or pole vaulters), both are lifting, but both are lifting differently. Furthermore, you shouldn't just train one way, the body needs change over time as the season goes on you are going to train differently... Here is a general guide, this is straight out of the NSCA book.

Hypertrophy and endurance stage of training - 50-75% of 1rm @ 3-6 sets, 10 - 20 reps
Basic Strength - 80 - 90% of 1rm @ 3-5 sets, 4-8 reps
Strength/power - 75-95% of 1rm @ 3-5 sets, 2-5 reps
Peaking - >93% of 1rm @ 1-3 sets, 1-3 reps
Maintenance - 80 - 85% of 1rm @ 2-3 sets, 6-8 reps

From page 511 - Table 19.1 - Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning - 3rd ed.


english please?^ i have no idea what that means but would appreciate the info

also i lift and do lots of ab workouts and results are noticable with my high school body so i would encourage everyone and anyone to do the same

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Re: Weight lifting low reps high weights?

Unread postby jump! » Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:23 pm

powerplant42 wrote:If you are over 15, you should be lifting weights if you want to be the best athlete you can be... in any sport!
[/quote]

That is one of the best quotes i've ever seen on this site. nothing disappoints me more than seeing young vaulters or just young athletes being discouraged from lifting. Weights are so important to developing yourself, not only as a vaulter, but as an ATHLETE!

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Re: Weight lifting low reps high weights?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:08 pm

That is one of the best quotes i've ever seen on this site. nothing disappoints me more than seeing young vaulters or just young athletes being discouraged from lifting. Weights are so important to developing yourself, not only as a vaulter, but as an ATHLETE!


You seem to be a little young (based on your profile) to make that statement. This is not to say that I don't like lifting, but I think if you replaced "lifting" with "strength training" or "athletic development" it would be a better statement. Any athlete that wants to reach the next level needs to embrace a larger view of their event or sport. In the case of the pole vault this means that an athlete that wants to maximize their potential needs to improve speed, core strength (for the swing and for hitting the pole with a solid body),and jumping ability in addition to improving technique. I would like to reiterate what has been said earlier on these boards that technique is the biggest contributor to performance, and if you want to improve, improving your technique is the best way. Additionally, everyone can improve their technique, and pretty much everyone can bring their technique up to elite levels. Speed and explosiveness can be seen as limiting factors for an athletes potential and should be improved, but not everyone can run 9+m/s or lung jump 23+ ft.

And as far as weight training goes, I think we need to remember its purpose in context. In general we are using weights to increase our strength, so that we can put more force into the ground, which should help us produce longer stride lengths at the same frequency, and greater vertical impulse at takeoff. However I believe that other ways of achieving this are equally valid, such as weighted or sled runs, hills, plyos and sprinting, and they are more closely related to the vault. I wouldn't discourage someone from lifting, I think it is helpful and fun, but I think it needs to be done with the larger picture in mind. Here's the way I look at it: Strength -> Power -> Speed/Jump -> Technique -> Performance. The more you improve things on the right side, the greater of an effect you will see, and the more you improve things on the left, the more room you will have for improvement on things to the right.

I apologize for the all over the place post, I think there's some good stuff in there if you dig through the ramblimg. I have more I can say but I have to go now. I think this is long enough though, haha.
-Nick

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Re: Weight lifting low reps high weights?

Unread postby powerplant42 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:26 pm

I've been misquoted by jump!

With some digging (though nobody needs to dig to find my thoughts on the role of weightlifting in training for the event, at least at the high school level,) jump! would have found this quote of mine:

"The situation might seem paradoxical: As the vaulter gets better and better, the time that it takes to fix technique becomes greater and greater, yet strength training becomes more and more important, because it begins to limit the vaulter more than before their level of technical efficiency.

But would you rather have a highly athletic vaulter with average technical ability, or an average athlete with high technical ability? I know what I would choose."

This was quoted by KirkB in here: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16324

That thread really does contain TWO of the best quotes you can find on this site, and it is altius quoting Klaus Bartonietz and then Bubka: "Klaus said, "It is a well known fact that faults which occur during the learning phases are very difficult to correct later and sometimes cannot be corrected at all. Therefore it is an absolute necessity that the target technique be developed as early as during childhood.

Bubka said, "But if you ask me which is the more important, the development of physical capacities or technical abilities, my answer will only be one, technical abilities. These abilities enable you to survive in different situations while the development of physical capacities is not so difficult.""

And then there's me rudely ranting in that thread too. :deadrose: (But I think the story about Fred hits home for 90%+ of high school vaulters.)

We're past beating this dead horse: now we're turning it into glue.
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka


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