Finding take-off angle...

[powerplant42]

How do you do it? I have a trial version of Dartfish (about to expire, but anyway,) and I'd really like to figure out how to accurately measure my take-off angle during training. What should I look at, for how long, and how should I look at it?

[baggettpv]

A cheap and easy way is to use the video camera and a tv.

Tape a piece of clear plastic (overhead sheet) on the tv screen.
Play a jump but do it frame by frame.
Plot with overhead pen various points of interest (Runway as a straight line, top hand, shoulders, hips, Take off foot etc) on each frame.
You can determine the takeoff angle by measuring the angle between the top hand and the runway. I played with this technique in the 80's and got alot of info from it. And it costs a whole $2 to do it... and creates alot of questions when you look at all of the plots for one jump

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[powerplant42]

Alright, thanks! I'll try that out this indoor season! But, if there is not a pre-jump (as 99% of the time is the case,) what about compensating for the pole's affect on the top hand? It pulls it UP, which increases the angle. Just approximate?

[KirkB]

Rick, I also played with transparencies - not in my vaulting days, but about 4 years ago, when analyzing Walker, Britts, etc. I taped them to my PC monitor rather than a TV, but otherwise the same idea as yours.

If we freeze-framed our Super-8 video back in the early 70s, the projector lamp would melt that frame! Lost a few that way!

But I don't get this:

You can determine the takeoff angle by measuring the angle between the top hand and the runway.

Am I looking at this wrong? I think of takeoff angle as the angle between the ground and your trajectory thru the air - like a long jumper or like a shot put.

So when Lanthorne (see "take-off point" thread in "Advanced Technique" forum) says 18° is optimal for world-class vaulters, doesn't he mean from ground level to trajectory path (immediately upon takeoff)?

Maybe we're talking about two completely different angles? I also don't understand the 3 points you're referring to when drawing this angle.

Can you explain, please? Thanks!

Kirk

[baggettpv]

CONNECT THE DOTS FOR THE TOP HAND SAY FOR THE FIRST 3 TO 5 FRAMES AND ESTIMATE THE LINE. DETERMINE THE ANGLE BETWEEN THIS LINE AND THE RUNWAY LINE. OH YEAH THE CAMERA MUST BE NON-MOVING.
OK?

RICK

[KirkB]

Got it!

Now I understand how you measured the angle, but wouldn't it be better to take a spot near the CoM instead of the top hand?

That way, you don't have to worry about anything that happens to the top hand out of synch of the rest of the body.

Wouldn't the intersection of the shorts and the front of the jersey be better?

I do agree that you've got to pick the exact frames as you're leaving the ground, and BEFORE you start swinging to catch the right angle. But it just seems to me that the top hand's going to be less reliable to measure the takeoff trajectory than the CoM, because of the impact of the pole. No?

Maybe the camera speed is so fast that none of this matters?

Kirk

[powerplant42]

Maybe taking a lot of points from different spots and averaging the angle would work?

[baggettpv]

Do all the spots and then see what you get....hehehe. Maybe they will be the same, maybe not. Let me throw this in while I am at it. I think the question is not the Take off angle but...... How can you get a takeoff angle for Beginners to intermediate athletes? Yes there needs to be an angle! So if you find a kid thats at 10 degree's what then?
I use an activity on pole plants where the athlete does a pole plant on the track (6 left approach, regular grip) with a jumping takeoff and you record the distance past the pole tip (where it contacts the track) that they land on their right foot. SImple, the farther the better (NO SLIDING BOX!). If they a better then advance them out to their regular run length and do the same activity. It MUST be a positive number that is jumping past the tip.

Hope this makes sense as I am just a Shop Teacher...hahahaha

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[KirkB]

How can you get a takeoff angle for Beginners to intermediate athletes? Yes there needs to be an angle! So if you find a kid thats at 10 degree's what then?

I use an activity on pole plants where the athlete does a pole plant on the track (6 left approach, regular grip) with a jumping takeoff and you record the distance past the pole tip (where it contacts the track) that they land on their right foot. SImple, the farther the better (NO SLIDING BOX!). If they a better then advance them out to their regular run length and do the same activity. It MUST be a positive number that is jumping past the tip.

Rick, your drill is a good one. I used it during warmups on the Astroturf at Husky Stadium - a little softer than the track. I did it only as a warmup tho. I didn't measure the distance jumped. And my technique was compromised a bit. If I used my proper forward lean during this drill, I wouldn't land on my feet. It's also a bit dangerous to jump for distance this way, without a soft landing.

A big problem in learning/coaching the takeoff is that you can't really tell from watching (or doing) a competitive vault how much the vaulter is jumping off the ground, and at what angle. Once the pole hits the back of the box and the vaulter begins to swing, the takeoff angle and velocity is "hidden".

So I have an idea for a new drill that might be a bit safer, and might also have a fun competitive component to it. And most importantly, it will allow the vaulter and coach to measure and identify exactly how good the takeoff is, and at what angle.

I've never tried this, so I'm hoping that someone might be willing to experiment with it, and report back whether it's a good drill or not.

The Bryde Jump Drill
The primary objective of this drill (or competition) is to determine how far and how high you're jumping on takeoff. A secondary objective is to determine your takeoff angle. By comparing one vaulter to another, or one jump to another (for the same vaulter), you can tell if you need to focus on improving your takeoff Jump. Over time, this drill will also show your jumping improvement - accurately measured in height and distance.

1. Set the standards at 0, and set a bungee cord at about the grip height of the shortest vaulter in the group. 2.00m to 2.20m?

2. Mark off takeoff points 0.50m apart on the runway - from about 2.00m to about 5.00m - depending on the skill levels of the vaulters in the group.

3. Start with a short run - say 3 or 4 lefts.

4. Holding your arms as if you're running with a pole, run up to the takeoff point, [do a fake plant,] jump, and try to touch the bungee with your top hand.

5. Record your attempt, and try again, moving your takeoff point and bar height back and up according to what you're capable of.

6. LJ rules apply for the horizontal component, so your jump is disqualified if you step over the toe-line. But you're still behind the toe-line that's 0.50m in front of that, so maybe you can record a successful jump from that takeoff point.

7. PV/HJ rules apply for the vertical component, but you don't have to clear the bar - you just have to touch it. Raise the bar in 0.05m to 0.10m increments.

8. Once you get the hang of it from a short run, move the run progressively back, all the way to a competitive vault length of run. You will of course move your takeoff point and bar height accordingly.

9. One variation of this is to carry a one meter length of pole (from a broken pole). You must hold it at the top, with your normal hand spread. But a pole might be dangerous in the landing, so maybe try something softer. A pool noodle might do, but it's a little thicker than a pole. You can get a length of pipe insulator from a plumbing store - the kind that you wrap around copper pipes in a crawl space. You should tape the entire length of it, to make it a bit more solid. Any of these props would enforce a more correct pole carry while you run/plant/jump during this drill.

BTW, the "soft pole" can be used in ANY sprinting drill - to get used to running with your arms in the proper pole-carry position - without having to carry a big pole.

10. You can calculate your takeoff angle by the video/transparceny method that Rick described. I suggest you stick a piece of tape to the side of your shirt, at your belly-button level, and put a dot on it with a felt pen. This will pinpoint your CoG (Center of Gravity) on the video footage, and improve the accuracy of your takeoff angle calculations on the transparency.

Don't forget that 18° is only an optimal angle calculated by Lanthorne for world-class vaulters. Your optimal takeoff angle might be ±5-10° from this. The exact angle isn't as important as knowing what it is, and knowing if you should strive for something slightly higher or lower. You'll discover that by doing this drill.

If anybody is willing and able to try this, please report back your findings. I'm interested to hear if this is a good drill/competition or not!

Kirk

[powerplant42]

But a pole might be dangerous in the landing, so maybe try something softer.

HA, I almost destroyed my face doing just that into a piece of the pit with a jagged stubby! Definitely find a replacement.

I like the idea for this drill, and I will give it a shot as soon as I can and post the film/results! However, and maybe I'm getting a little too picky here, but what about gravity's affect on take-off angle? I guess that gravity would make (at least for a pre-jump vaulter) take-off angle only matter at pole strike, but is the angle lost from the moment of take-off to pole -strike negligible or worth thinking about? Thanks, this has been really helpful!

[KirkB]

Gravity is nothing to worry about when doing a free takeoff. Remember that you're jumping UP and FORWARDS - optimally at 18° (for an elite vaulter) says Lanthorne. Your objective is to get as high a plant as possible - even HIGHER than what you can reach on your tip-toes. Gravity is negligible in this context.

Let me also explain a little better how you'd optimize your jump in my proposed Bryde Bungee Jump Drill ...

You would takeoff at a point exactly far enough away to touch the bungee chord at the peak of your flight path. In other words, at the top of the parabolic curve (as your CoM travels). At that point, you should also have sufficiently upright body posture to reach as high as you possibly can - to touch the bungee.

You can imagine that gravity plays a much bigger role in the drill than in an actual vault. Visualize how far and how high your best jump would be in the drill. Or better yet, just try it!

Here's a very rough approximation ...

If you're a 20' long jumper and a 5'6' high jumper (picking some very "average" performances for a college male athlete), you should be able to reach your peak at about 10' from your takeoff and perhaps 8'6" up (assuming an "average" athlete's standing reach + jumping up from there. I'm just guessing here, instead of taking the time to measure, so don't rant on me if I'm off a bit). So you can see that you should travel about 11-12' to the bungee - INCLUDING THE AFFECT OF GRAVITY.

Now, can you see how minimal the effect of gravity is when your free takeoff is less than a foot off your tiptoes?

Incidentally, no matter whether you're targetting to hit the pole in the box immediately after takeoff (a free takeoff of 0"), or half a foot off the ground (a free takeoff of 6"), the drill is equally beneficial. It teaches you to JUMP off the ground as hard as you can, and it provides you and your coach with a measurement of your skill and progress in doing so. These metrics are camouflaged as soon as your top hand feels the impact of the pole in the box. The drill exposes them.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

You could even work on the fabulous 'jump-split'!