Six Stride "MID" Chart Data

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dj
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Six Stride "MID" Chart Data

Unread postby dj » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:46 am

Six Stride "MID" Chart Data....

Good Morning,

Again my "chart" questions and post are getting spread out in many threads… but I do appreciate the questions and interest.. hopefully we can continue to make progress with the approach run for all vaulters..

So my hope is it's ok with Becca to post the latest talks, post all in one spot.. so the readers don't have to go back and forth to different post and I don't have to "answer" in many places.. just one…

I'm going to post in the "coaches" thread…

All this info is from recent questions and discussions.. some I have posted.. some I have PMed…

Hopefully it will help any and all approach run questions…

............................................................................................................................................

Six Step Numbers…

This post is to explain that stretching is not a good thing in the approach run and that monitoring the sixth step is the ONLY way, other than chance, to monitor and correct.

Forward… to faster, higher and more fun…………….

I do know that a "MID" of 17.50m/57 feet @ 9.70mps for the men's world record is much, much more closely aligned to physics than a mark at 58 feet/17.80m @ 9.4mps. That a "MID" of 51 feet/15.60m @ 8.4mps is more aligned with physics of a 5.10m jump than a "MID" of 16.00m/52 feet @ 8.1mps.

Over the last couple of years I'm finding more and more Approach Runs, men and women, that have "MIDS" far removed from the "physics".

My frustration is this, I continue to find "resistance" from even some of the world's best coaches that feel the "MID" has to be out 50 to 70cm from a sound, none stretched stride length. Resistance in even "comparing" the numbers with what they are doing now.

In addition to that I'm actually finding "excitement" and approval from the coaches to the athletes that have numbers that are that far out.

That can be like "messing with fire" in that it seems ok… but if the vaulter is a little more out next time… or a little slower next time/meet… they may have "unexplained' difficulty.

World Class men's' numbers at 58 feet /17.80m are being reported AND supported, when logic (and the fact that the world's greatest pole vaulter set the long standing world record with a mark that could not have been outside 17.50… based on his last 2/4 stride data) tells us that the men vaulters that are jumping below the world record and that are hitting a mark over/out from 17.50/57'(43' 4 step mark) are stretching into the takeoff. I have observed 5.50 meter jumpers that feel there "MID" should be outside of 17.50 meters, stretch in practice and in meets and become frustrated that they can't "do it right", do what their coaches have been teaching them and have "hit a wall" with no improvement for the past 3 years.

Stretching the steps a lot or a little creates "under", none "free" takeoffs, late plants, poor posture, loss of speed, flat takeoffs.. forced loading of the pole, squashed poles, broken poles, low pole speed, injury, inconsistency, frustration from the vaulter, mental issues because I day, one jump they look like a world record holder and the next meet like a beginner. Mental issues because the "issue" because coach nor the athlete knows or accepts the point on the runway six steps from the takeoff can be "that" important.

On the women's side data shows that the women's world record was set with a six step mark of approximately 15.50m/50'8"/(38' 4 step mark).. while overseas for the past four years I saw women training with 16 meter "MIDS" and stretching into the takeoff..continue to struggle in practice… Occasionally they would "push" out of the back stronger, get their "mid" closer and have a good jump.. they usually had got a good pole bend, pole speed and penetration so they would "think", go to a bigger pole… again they didn't push out enough, hit "out" at the "mid' stretched, slow down, took off flat.. less pole speed, less penetration, unsafe jump.. etc.. get frustrated that they (and the coach agrees and blames the athlete) can't use the "bigger" pole or perform the same "good" jump they just had with the small pole!!! They did have some good success at meets because they would have adrenalin, more speed and a "MID" closer to the speed and grip.

I have stated the 'Numbers" before from the 2009 world championships.. good women's vaults came from "MIDS" of 15.30/15.60 or 50-51 feet sis step "MIDS" (37-4 to 38-4 four step "MID") and bad jumps came from "MIDS" 40 to 50cm out from those numbers!!! That is 14 to 18 inches at the 4 step "MID" or over 16 meters/52 feet. Even a world class jumper cannot get to a correct takeoff from a "MID" that far out.

Obviously some jumpers get ok jumps with "MIDS" that far out… we have seen it.. BUTT that is what has us fooled. We want to accept the "exception" because we don't know how or what to change!!

That is why the sixth step out needs to be used by everyone at all times as a correct monitor… the math "physics" is done and tested.. all you have to do is see if your athlete needs an adjustment and coach.

When you stretch you increase the 'ground"/support time, when you stretch the hips are "tilted" in the wrong direction.. when the hips are tilted wrong the posture is wrong, when you stretch the COM becomes low… when you stretch you have to move the pole a little more forward and back for balance. When the hips are out of position you have to "step up" and wait to push up until the hips pass vertical.. when you step under you "must" force bend the pole or the hips will get "sucked" under even more. If you get "sucked" under (stretch the last step) you will, almost 100% of the time, flag or reach for the bar/pit because you have lost pole speed and hve to pass the pole cord to try and get to the bar/pit.

Why is it important to be "ON" six steps from the takeoff… just like it's important to have the correct "on" first step it's equally or more important to know six steps from the plant.

Reason why… First; if you are "on" six steps from the plant it becomes "easier" to continue to drop the pole and not interrupt the process by stretching if you are out, or chopping if you are in/under.

Second; all the scientist will tell you that an athlete, long jump or pole vault will "steer" or adjust 4 to 6 steps (IF they are off) from the takeoff. It is very important to be very close to "ON" from six so "IF" you have to steer it will be slight and hopefully "steering" will have little effect on the speed, posture, plant or takeoff.

Third; the "physics" of acceleration mandates that it be progressive. What you do on the first step "predicts" were you will be each successive step to the takeoff. Look at Tyson Gay in the Bolt 9.58 100 meter race. He was already "off" on the first step. He did make some adjustments but he continued to be "off" at 20, 30, 40, 50 meters and on to the finish. Tyson and His coach knows where he should be 10, 20, 30 , 40 meters from the start and I know they have trained "by the numbers"… In the sprint we know that to run 9.80sec. you need to be at 30.25 meters from the start… in the vault you need a six step mark 17.50m from the box to run 9.7mps and grip 5.18m,…… …but in the heat of battle.. Gay "short" stepped his start and got "behind". Without a pole in their hands long jumpers and sprinters have an outside chance to make adjustments, Maybe.. but with a pole and only 18/20 steps and 40m/ 42 meter Approach Run it is impossible to make an adjustment.. if you do you will lose speed and have to "compensate" in an event where speed is very important to grip, pole size and moving that grip and pole to vertical.

Maybe I created the stubbornness, the resistance by trying to explain (and being persistent) as to why stretching is a bad thing in any of the events that are speed based. Why a correct run has to follow the "physics".. The chart in itself "looks" like more than it is.. in base terms it is a check point… accurate.. more accurate than 4… why have a check mark "after" the speed has been lost, after the stretching has begun… after the focus should be on moving the pole up and taking off out.

Those with an open mind and a willingness to improve the run of your vaulters go to my website.. http://www.oneappraochrun.com and down load the chart. When you vaulter is jumping good compare the six step "MID"… do the same on bad jumps..

I think you will get the best run very quickly… plus you can train by running the correct approach run numbers n the track..

Just like long jumping… there is no reason not to have a perfect run before you go to competition… make slight adjustments because of adrenalin/wind .. the chart shows you how to adjust to more or less speed … or more or less grip…

Thanks
Good luck

dj

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by dj » Sat May 21, 2011 8:43 am
T. Mack was at 54-8/16.75m at the trials in 2004

Bubka was looking for a 17.00 meter mark in an LA indoor meet..

If you extrapolate from Peter McGinnis's data..

Bubka's last two steps… 2.10m and 2.04m would confirm something close to 56 feet/17.00m-17.16m meters.


dj

ps... Mack's was with a 16-4/5.00m grip and a 5.90m very good high clearance.. and Bubka was gripping maybe a little over 5m and i think may have jumped 19-8/5.95 that night???
...........................................................................................................................................................

Tim Mack.. 2oo4 Olympic Trials...easy jump over 5.90m... "MID" 54-8/16.75 grip 16-4/5.00m- 9.40MPS...

Sergey Bubka..1987 IAAF Indoor... 5.85 clearance with 6.12m COM height with 16.80/17.00m "MID" and 5.10 grip - 9.52MPS

Tully.... 1987... 5.70 jump-5.88 COM 4.97 grip 17.00m "MID" - 9.45MPS

Video of above jumps……
this vaulter Tim Mack..had a 55'/16.85m "MID"… 9.3/9.4mps… 5.00m grip on this jump…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVzmjDwKRHk

…………………………
this vaulter Mike Tully had a 55'/16.85m "MID"…9.4mps… 5.00m grip on this jump
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA7Dapjsh9A

…………………………
this vaulter Bubka had a 55'8"/17.05m "MID" 9.53mps on this same jump indoors in LA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmB15sOkSa0

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Bell.. October 1974... 5.15m jump 15.60/51 foot "MID" 4.40 grip...
Bell.. June 1975... 5.55 jump 16.30/53-4 "MID"... 4.85 grip
Bell.. 5.80 jump 17.10m/56 foot "MID" 5.00m grip............

I have the science, "numbers", from Peter McGinnis from 1983 to 2004.. the numbers from the German and Japanese studies up to 2009. When some data is/ was not available you can "extrapolate", usually, within 10cm by comparing what you know to be true with the unknown...

For example if a vaulter took two steps of 2.07m @ 9.5mps you can make an educated "guess" that six steps would be 12.42 meters.. that plus a 4.27 meter takeoff would give you a possible 16.69 meter six Step "MID"... you know the grip was 5.10 meters so you form a relationship/proportions..
In 1971/72 i actually compared an average 14 foot vault to a 16 foot vault.. determined the relationship for the six step "MID", the relationship for the grip - to speed - to jump height.

I have tested my chart numbers at every meet and from every scientific data study since that time...

As far as coaching "good" vaulters i have had a good working relationship with three former world record holders, several Olympians and Olympic level coaches....

As far as "impact" on the vault... i want us to jump our best... and i think that would mean more Gold Medals and possibly the world record.

I determined a long time ago that the one thing i had to offer the vault and to vaulters, that was better or as good as any coach in the world, (with 95% of coaches focused on the plant and swing) was the run.

And fortunately some coaches understood the speed to grip- to jump rations .........and that each "level" of speed had a specific stride length.. that the "frequency" (time for each vaulter to take six steps) for all jumpers stays very close to the same ... it is the length that changes, proportionately with speed...

i joined PVP Initially because someone else had posted my chart on PVP.. and questions were coming up.... I explained it as a tool... a valued check point at six steps before the plant and takeoff to check and see if the vaulters was "on

not everyone seemed to understand....

. i tried to explain the science and validity with the real numbers, may, may people PMed me to say it was working great for them.. but again many seemed to miss interpret/accept it as a very valid "check point"... i have continued to try and "defend" and explain my work and my passion/desire for us to be the greatest pole vaulters, men and women, ever.

My chart has been "on target", so on target it seems that it is difficult to accept. But i have continued to validate AND test in meets and practice. Not really checking the "physics" but to see if there is a better way to explain why we all should use it as a tool/reference/check point in our coaching and jumping.

So i have continued to pass on my Approach Run data.. and "defend" my chart..

If you want to jump like a world record holder... you have to jump like a world record holder. That means use the same physics... physics is numbers... my chart is the Approach Run "numbers"..

Tim Mack's coach "B" coaches by "form" ... i personally coach by function.. with the belief that "form follows function." When i use the numbers i get the desired "form".. when "B" gets the "from"/posture his jumpers are hitting the numbers for the grip, MID and jump height.

dj

dj
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Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
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Re: Six Stride "MID" Chart Data

Unread postby dj » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:13 pm

recently recieved the following...
wanted to share... the more we share hopefully the more we understand...

PV? on Chart
Sent: Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:59 pm
From:
To: dj
DJ,

I coach high school pole vault. My question for you is this, I have a girl that on a basic 12 step approach her mid is 36.5 is that too far out? If her grip is at 9'6". I have just found your chart and I am trying to use it, but it is telling me that she should be at 32'. Can you help me understand this? On the approach do you teach to start in a sprint? or bound?

Thanks for you help and I look forward to your response

Hey Tad

The "move" up/forward on the steps wouldn't/shouldn't be automatic... although a 32 "MID" is the correct speed to grip 9'6" and jump 7'6"......

A 36.5 "MID" matches proportionately with a 10-10 grip and a 9-6 jump...

Without seeing video, knowing a little about how long she has vaultered and what your trying to fix... i would guess she is over striding (stretching) which will generally cause the athlete to "reach" and takeoff under, have very poor posture and a late plant.

The first thing i do is move the run on to the track.... put a chalk line for the 36 "MID"... runback from the "MID" or measure back to get the start of a 12 stride 6 left run...

Without marking the box or takeoff point 3 lefts from the "MID" forward, Have her do a practice "natural" run .., three l3fts to the chalk line "MID" and three more lefts to plant a "fake" takeoff......

See where "natural" is and how she runs, stretched, chopped or good???

then mark 6 steps from the "MID" toward the box 1.45meters apart and place a cone at each.. then you can make the box from the last takeoff cone and put two cones to plant into....

move over a lane and mark 6 steps from the same "MID" mark, 1.40meters apart...

move over another lane and mark 6 steps from the same "MID" mark, 1.35meters apart...

you should have a 36 "MID".. a 35 and a 34...

start running these for "speed" and pole carry work.... see if the shorter steps get her better posture, more speed and a plant on time...

work these and move out/longer some... if she stretches move her back in...

eventually she will start running correctly and become faster... then you can start moving her out..

this should eventually translate to a faster run on the runway, higher grips (in proportion to the speed and "MID" and better higher jumping....

dj
davidfjohnston@yahoo.com

ps if she is still stretching at a 34 "MID" move here to 33...

PSS. you can find the charts here... http://www.oneapproachrun.com ...i hope to have the website more functional in a week.. blog.. more info etc..i have had a big project going now for several months that should be "launched" in a day or two...yea...

This post and the one before this one hopefully makes what i do easier to understand.. i use my chart to coach.. i know if they are hitting marks that are "out of proportion" to my chart that they are doing something wrong. They either are running fast enough to jump higher, like this girl could be doing, or they are stretching and stopping themselves from planting and taking off correctly to jump the height that matches the "MID".

dj
PV Psycho
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
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Re: Six Stride "MID" Chart Data

Unread postby dj » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:59 am

good morning

Had this "conservation" recently with a coaching friend in London. Long Jump/Rutherford numbers.

1 1832 Greg Rutherford GBR 8.31 (-0.4)
.
2 1066 Mitchell Watt AUS 8.16 (-0.2)
.
3 3211 Will Claye USA 8.12 (-0.2) .

Report • 4:56pm
Friend D… 45.80 run with 20 stride approach. We use a 4 step check at 9.70. Check out my vaulter's run on Wed. He is flying, 9.46 at 5m out.

Me..… that puts him (Rutherford-Long Jumper) right at 14.50M/48 feet at 6 steps and (speed) jump potential of 8.30/8.45 (27-6/28feet) (Long jump chart is at http://www.oneapproachrun.com)

Me… I'll check the vault… 9.46m should put him at approximately 17.20/56 feet, 6 step "MID" and 42/12.80 4 step?

Friend D…. about the vaulter.. " He is a tall one. 43.85m run with mid at 17.60. He takes off at 4.20-4.30."

Me….. I consider that a little out.. but if he is running good, with that speed and TO.. should be ready.

My long jump/pole vault charts are at http://www.oneapproachrun.com

Good luck

dj


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