POLE TIPS they help and do they hinder the vaulter!

[Capt Caveman]

All tips are "bulbus" and would move the bottom of the pole away from the bottom of the box.

How much more seperation does this tip create than, a UCS or a Pacer tip. Isnt this the same idea that the big heavy black tips that were out in the 80's? I seem to remember a black tip with an arrow telling you wich direction it was supposed to point.

I am aslo curious, as the tip rotates it is pushing back towards the runway as the vaulter is trying to move the pole the other direction. Would this not be a negative feeling to the vaulter?

[KirkB]

Is having the available unobstructed pole angle increased a benefit to elite vaulters? ...

... So I don't think a wider angle (the effective angle due to the FLAME tip being a bit away from the stopboard) would be a benefit for elite vaulters with PROPER technique ... but it MIGHT be safer and more forgiving for vaulters that bend the pole WAAAY too much. ...

2. I don't think the egg-shaped tip helps to increase the effective angle of the CORNER of the box ... much. That would only be true (for a righty) if the tip was wider on the LEFT SIDE of it ... and you planted the pole on the LEFT SIDE of the box.

I've read DJ's patent in detail now, and confirm that my initial thoughts on the benefits of such a patent remain as above.

I do however, agree that the fat side of the tip is properly positioned directly forwards, and this will rotate to the side correctly as the pole rotates to the side. (See next post too.)

Kirk

[KirkB]

... 3. Bubka's pole never had any tape or scratches at the butt end of the pole, Which means the pole was exited before it could reach the back of the box!????

I don't know if the underlined part is a statement or a sarcastic question ... I assume it's a question. I have not personally studied slo-mo vids from a "box-cam" (I'd actually like to) ... but I'm willing to bet that the NORMAL path of an elite vaulter's pole rotates to the side far before it has a chance of striking the top edge of the stopboard 8" up the pole. I maintain that it's at the CORNER of the stopboard (where the stopboard meets the side of the box) that there's a strong liklihood that the pole will strike the top edge of the box.

But the reason that poles have tape or scratches at the 8" mark is not necessarily an indication of excessive bending of "normal" vaults. More likely, I believe this can be attributed to warmup jumps, where the vaulter DOESN'T bend the pole ... and merely rides it into the pit.

Read on.

5. I am told and I have not experienced this myself, but that the pole tip simply provides a more upward ride of energy return of the pole!

I don't have first-hand experience re this either, but I consider this as something that defies the Laws of Physics. If the tip is made of a compound similar to a lacrosse ball ... which bounces quite hard when it impacts a hard surface ... then the TIME at which this bounce would occur would be when the butt of the pole strikes the stopboard. At that TIME, any bounce would be in the direction of the top of the pole! At that TIME, this would definitely NOT be a benefit to the vaulter ... as it would bounce him back towards the runway!

If the bounce was DELAYED until such time as the vaulter had inverted and was extending in time with the pole, then I would agree that a "bounce" of the tip might have some benefit re "a more upward ride of energy return of the pole". Bruce, I challenge whoever told you that to somehow prove his statement ... or at least provide some sort of convincing argument that it's true!

6. The pole does gravitate towards the box side which is even a greater angle and the pole tip still increases that angle!
As a result the knot would still need to be on the front of the pole and will turn towards the sides!

I agree with this point. I was mistaken in my original analysis. Upon reflection, I now realize that when the pole rotates to the SIDE of the box, the pole twists with the butt plug intact.

Therefore, my conclusion is that if the pole strikes the FAR corner of the box (the corner furthest away from the bend), then there's NO benefit to the asymetric plug. However, if the pole strikes the NEAR corner, then there's a GOOD benefit for MANY elite vaulters.

Since most vaulters don't have 100% control over which side of center their pole will land in the box, my conclusion is that this is a good, safe, harmless piece of PV equipment. When I say "harmless" I mean that when you strike the FAR side of the box with the pole, it's HARMLESS (will not affect your vault in any negative way) ... and when you strike the NEAR side of the box, it's ADVANTAGEOUS (will help to avoid striking the top corner of the box, which in turn will give you a more natural bend).

I would also like to point out that a more natural bend is not just a BETTER bend ... it's also a SAFER bend. If your pole strikes the corner, it can inadvertently propel you in the opposite direction ... possibly right into the standards!

Kirk

[Bruce Caldwell]

OMG a tremendous amount of assumptions for some one who has not tried the tip!
Thanks for your comments however. when are you going to order a tip and really test it?
( note your spirits and Pacers might be too soft if you put it on them!) grin
let me address a few things ok!

Bubka's pole never touched the back of the box his technique on top is far superior than other vaulters who ride the pole he is off the pole before the pole gets to the back of the box!

upward energy is an exchange between pole angle created by the plug and vaulter not the pole tip bouncing in the box LOL
confused UR


When the pole tip meets the back of the box it rotates with the pole and provides an even greater angle on the sides of some boxes, especially those that are wider at the sides rather than the narrow ones!
The tip reacts the same way on the sides as towards the back!


The flame tip is harmless and ADVANTAGEOUS even towards the sides of the box!
The objective it to utilize it to manage a stiffer pole that has the benefits to lift your body mass better!

The bend is the angle you strive for, it just allows you to get the bend you need and the angle you need to manage the vault!
It is a proper bend compared to poles that bend low, the tip and the ESSX pole work together better than on other poles.
Natural bend mmmm not sure if it is natural? we make the pole to bend like that also!
Bruce

... 3. Bubka's pole never had any tape or scratches at the butt end of the pole, Which means the pole was exited before it could reach the back of the box!????

I don't know if the underlined part is a statement or a sarcastic question ... I assume it's a question. I have not personally studied slo-mo vids from a "box-cam" (I'd actually like to) ... but I'm willing to bet that the NORMAL path of an elite vaulter's pole rotates to the side far before it has a chance of striking the top edge of the stopboard 8" up the pole. I maintain that it's at the CORNER of the stopboard (where the stopboard meets the side of the box) that there's a strong liklihood that the pole will strike the top edge of the box.

But the reason that poles have tape or scratches at the 8" mark is not necessarily an indication of excessive bending of "normal" vaults. More likely, I believe this can be attributed to warmup jumps, where the vaulter DOESN'T bend the pole ... and merely rides it into the pit.

Read on.

5. I am told and I have not experienced this myself, but that the pole tip simply provides a more upward ride of energy return of the pole!

I don't have first-hand experience re this either, but I consider this as something that defies the Laws of Physics. If the tip is made of a compound similar to a lacrosse ball ... which bounces quite hard when it impacts a hard surface ... then the TIME at which this bounce would occur would be when the butt of the pole strikes the stopboard. At that TIME, any bounce would be in the direction of the top of the pole! At that TIME, this would definitely NOT be a benefit to the vaulter ... as it would bounce him back towards the runway!

If the bounce was DELAYED until such time as the vaulter had inverted and was extending in time with the pole, then I would agree that a "bounce" of the tip might have some benefit re "a more upward ride of energy return of the pole". Bruce, I challenge whoever told you that to somehow prove his statement ... or at least provide some sort of convincing argument that it's true!

6. The pole does gravitate towards the box side which is even a greater angle and the pole tip still increases that angle!
As a result the knot would still need to be on the front of the pole and will turn towards the sides!

I agree with this point. I was mistaken in my original analysis. Upon reflection, I now realize that when the pole rotates to the SIDE of the box, the pole twists with the butt plug intact.

Therefore, my conclusion is that if the pole strikes the FAR corner of the box (the corner furthest away from the bend), then there's NO benefit to the asymetric plug. However, if the pole strikes the NEAR corner, then there's a GOOD benefit for MANY elite vaulters.

Since most vaulters don't have 100% control over which side of center their pole will land in the box, my conclusion is that this is a good, safe, harmless piece of PV equipment. When I say "harmless" I mean that when you strike the FAR side of the box with the pole, it's HARMLESS (will not affect your vault in any negative way) ... and when you strike the NEAR side of the box, it's ADVANTAGEOUS (will help to avoid striking the top corner of the box, which in turn will give you a more natural bend).

I would also like to point out that a more natural bend is not just a BETTER bend ... it's also a SAFER bend. If your pole strikes the corner, it can inadvertently propel you in the opposite direction ... possibly right into the standards!

Kirk

[KirkB]

Kirk

[dj]

hye

i didn't know this was being discussed....

this was one of the three patents i did in the late 70's.. actually got accepted in 1984?

the original had a "cam" effect and would allow the vaulter (16 foot grip) to penetrate 4 or more inches... i tested these at cal Northridge with a "light" system that had a switch (long doorbell type) across the back top of the box.. you could see when the pole touched the top back, if it did... and where the vaulter was when it touched...

what i found out, other than being able to penetrate more, was (on the swing) the vaulter must be past the "flatback" position BEFORE the pole hit the back top of the box.. because when it hit you were going to be "thrown" off the pole whether you liked it or not.. you know kinda like running down the road and stubbing your toe.. the bottom stops the top accelerates.. actually what should happen with the two pendulum action of pole vaulting...

what i saw was those that rode the pole too long had to "muscle" to invert and exite vertical.. it really all went to the physics of the event and what Issakson was trying to do... high extended plant.. and swing onto your back as fast as possible, without tucking, line up and go vertical.. i really think this is the "Roman Model" 6.40 model.. the :model” that has the vaulter completing the whole vault TO toe leaving the runway to max COM in 1.47 sec.. etc.. those vaulters don’t always “grind” the pole into the back of the box.. and yes the pole will find the corner where there is the least resistance.

I think Bruce’s ‘adaptation” is better than the original.. could be slightly fatter.. and the material should be hard not soft like the old black ugly ones…

Tim, I did my first “studies in the 70’s at the U of F with tennis balls.. and saw the French using then with good results in 80-82..

Side note… if you have really studied thephysics of the vault.. you know that you can check the butt plug and know what kind of plant, right or wrong, your vaulter had/has on every vault.. same with the ‘scare” from the back of the box.. same thing with the plastic protectors.. mark them.. if they ‘slide down” on the vault.. that means the plant was incorrect, under, not high or all of the above…

Bruce’s plug is beneficial… and if they are made from the right material they should last a long time unless your plant is bad..

By the way.. when you do pole runs (which you should do 3 days a week) put a tennis ball on your plug so they last longer…

dj

[KirkB]

Off topic:

... it really all went to the physics of the event and what Issakson was trying to do... high extended plant.. and swing onto your back as fast as possible, without tucking, line up and go vertical.. i really think this is the "Roman Model" 6.40 model.. the :model” that has the vaulter completing the whole vault TO toe leaving the runway to max COM in 1.47 sec...

It worked really well for Isaksson, becuz he was a great gymnast, and a great high jumper (for his size), with decent speed. Not so easy for us mere mortals.

On topic: Really great comments re the pole tip ... appreciate it. Also appreciate your pioneering work on this!

Kirk

[Bruce Caldwell]

Yes David Johnston had some really great ideas! They were all way ahead of their time, just as he was way ahead of his time too!. People are just know starting to see the benefits of his ideas.
His Gadget idea is a great one too a lifter without a pole that fits on your pole.Until someone showed my a clip you buy at Horne Depot for $.99 that works the same!
He also has a great High jump steps measuring device!
There is a big need for this now! If you area coach you should ask him about!
Bruce Caldwell

[dj]

good morning

His Gadget idea is a great one too a lifter without a pole that fits on your pole.Until someone showed my a clip you buy at Horne Depot for $.99 that works the same!

the GadgetTM ...was a great idea for it's time... but the .99 cent clamp works just as good... plus the company that now "sells" my Gadget as there's !!! and call a Putter Upper.... didn't design it by the patent so it doesn't work correctly and effectivly...

He also has a great High jump steps measuring device!

now this one could work for all high jumpers AND allow them to have correct steps exactly,, in less than a minute and one measuring tape..

dj