Bottom arm discussion continues...

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby bel142 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:18 am

Just a thought, are there any photos/film where there are clear views of the bottom arm, if we start asking the question "...is the musculature clearly engaged?" we can determine vector pressure due to specific muscular engagement. This would not add to debate so much as give insight to what is possibly happening at take off, then perhaps lead to the role of what is happening at take off.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby polevaulter811 » Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:19 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:
vault3rb0y wrote:During take off you should apply pressure upward.


No, you should be elastic here

Once the swing begins, if you are still pushing with your bottom arm is this not a passive phase


You are not still pushing, because you just came out of an elastic position.

I am not an expert but i have studied the petrov model quite a bit and from my understanding, pushing with your bottom arm after you finish your take off is a passive phase. Your hands can be UP but does it necessarily mean pushing? In agapits manifesto i thought i remembered him saying that using the bottom arm to push is a passive phase and should be eliminated. Perhaps this was cleared up and i missed it?>


How would pushing up be passive? I really dont think you guys understand what I am saying. Watch the videos closer!! During the plant their hands are pushing as high as possible/ during the takeoff until the takeoff is complete the shoulders are elastic and the hands move back with the trail foot/ once the trail foot starts to swing forward upward pressure is applied. Its 3 parts plant (pushing hands up) takeoff (elastic shoulders) initiating swing (upward pressure)

What agapit is referring to is pushing up with the left arm during the takeoff, since the arm is already extended up.


Can someone please explain what "being elastic means" in regards to the bottom arm?

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:33 am

polevaulter811 wrote: Can someone please explain what "being elastic means" in regards to the bottom arm?

On page 3 of this thread, you'll find a link to the Dave Butler Summit vid. In that vid, he describes what "going elastic" means. He may not specifically refer to the role of the bottom arm in "going elastic", but if I'm not mistaken, he either coined or popularized the phrase.

Personally, I think that pushing (or pulling) with the bottom arm contradicts the term "going elastic". I don't think you can have an "elastic stretch" with the bottom arm whilst at the same time pulling or pushing with it. Just MHO.

There are other opinions on this board about this, and I'm not going to say that I'm right and they're wrong. I'm just saying that I stand firm in my opinion.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby AllaboutPV1 » Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:18 pm

bel142 wrote:Just a thought, are there any photos/film where there are clear views of the bottom arm, if we start asking the question "...is the musculature clearly engaged?" we can determine vector pressure due to specific muscular engagement. This would not add to debate so much as give insight to what is possibly happening at take off, then perhaps lead to the role of what is happening at take off.


in this url is jeff hartwig, you can clearly see his left tricept its huge and you can zoom in on the picture.
http://www.gillathletics.com/pvnews/ima ... rlds04.jpg

in this picture is bubka you can see the flexing of the left tricept and the only way the muscle contracts if you are using it, just basic physiology

http://www.lehmantrack.com/Images/sergei_bubka.jpg

and in this picture is tim mack as he is just leaving the ground it looks like and you can see that the tricept is of course flexed pushing upward.

http://blog.cleveland.com/sports/2008/06/timmacklc.jpg

and renaud lavillenie is in the picture pushing up nice and tall with his left hand at T-O

http://i.eurosport.fr/2009/03/08/504466 ... 17-238.jpg

just contributing some pictures that i know of to help

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby chasing6 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 4:06 am

AllaboutPV1 wrote:
in this picture is bubka you can see the flexing of the left tricept and the only way the muscle contracts if you are using it, just basic physiology



I don't think anyone will argue that the triceps of the bottom are not to be flexed at all. There is a major difference however between actively extending your arm (via tricep flexion) and maintaining isometric pressure to keep the pole "away". Both have been discussed elsewhere on this forum, and raise the never-ending questions of intent which have been so thoroughly argued by so many.

If there's anything I've learned about pole vault (and life for that matter), it's that just because something appears have happened, it doesn't necessarily mean that it did.
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby dj » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:18 pm

“elastic” is more about what you don’t do than what you do..

From the sessions I have seen between David and Petrov, from David and from petrov written and video…

It is a simple “action” rather than a ‘reaction” to the “jolt” at the plant, if you have a “jolt”.. from a none free takeoff or less than a high plant.

When you leave the runway and the pole hits the back of the box instead of “flexing and/or “pushing” you reach higher.. lengthen the body, let the chest go “through” and keep swinging as fast as you can..

The one major “thing” I can see in the data that I have posted on another thread is that Bubka.. attacks through (“in”) and “up” creating a greater swing force than anyone.. that swing force translates into pole speed/penetration (Horizontal meters per second) and vertical height (vertical meters per second) above the grip.

Going “elastic” doesn’t mean you loosen the grip or stop “working” it just means you let the “force” continue longer (in distance) but faster in swing speed without a “brake” in the action..

Even in “tuck” vaulters where it looks like they have stoped the swing.. I have found the speed of the rotation on the tuck and shoot was faster on the best jump.. Harwig and Vignrion in particular…

Again if you ran and grabber a rope and had to swing over a wide ditch.. you would have to lengthen the body and swing harder.. faster..

If you pulled in or resisted (flexed/contracted curtain muscles) you will kill the momentum..

Elastic is a momentum builder …

dj

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby Polevaulter2012 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:00 pm


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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby dougb » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:04 pm

At the 2010 Pole Vault Summit, Peter McGinnis and Nick Hysong gave a joint presentation. During the question and answer period Nick Hysong was asked “When do you release pressure on the left arm?”

His answer was: “You never release pressure on the left arm, You keep pushing up and over your head”

If you look at all of the vaulters shown on stabhoch.com, They universally have both arms straight when the trail leg is lined up with their top arm. This does not happen because the left arm is relaxed! A vaulter has to work the left arm ( push ) to get to this position. This is not the same thing as blocking out! The action happens after the takeoff leg leaves the ground and accentuates the drive of the top arm in bending the pole. (rolling the pole?)

Check it out.

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:34 am

dougb wrote:At the 2010 Pole Vault Summit, Peter McGinnis and Nick Hysong gave a joint presentation. During the question and answer period Nick Hysong was asked “When do you release pressure on the left arm?”

His answer was: “You never release pressure on the left arm, You keep pushing up and over your head”

If you look at all of the vaulters shown on stabhoch.com, They universally have both arms straight when the trail leg is lined up with their top arm. This does not happen because the left arm is relaxed! A vaulter has to work the left arm ( push ) to get to this position. This is not the same thing as blocking out! The action happens after the takeoff leg leaves the ground and accentuates the drive of the top arm in bending the pole. (rolling the pole?)

I'm going to assume that your comment is in reaction to LoJo saying that his best advice for young vaulters is to "keep the pole moving".

He is talking about pole speed, of course, which is the idea of keeping the pole rotating to vertical ... or in other words keep everything ... the pole and your body ... moving in a forwards direction.

He's right. If you lose pole speed, then you lose a lot of things. You lose the ability to place the standards at 80, and you begin to second-guess your technique and how you'll clear the bar when the pole ISN'T moving as it should. So I would add to LoJo's advice that you should not only keep the pole moving, but you should also set your standards at 80 so that you MUST keep the pole moving. That will eliminate one variable in your vault (where to place the standards) and allow you to focus on everything else ... like TECHNIQUE. Technique to "keep the pole moving" and clear a bar that's at 80.

Doug, you say ...
The action happens after the takeoff leg leaves the ground and accentuates the drive of the top arm in bending the pole. (rolling the pole?)

First, I think "rolling the pole" is as I and LoJo described ... I think it's unrelated to "driving the top arm in bending the pole". I know we disagree on this, but I bow to how Bubka did it ... not anyone else on stabhoch.com. And with all due respect, not to how Hysong and McGinnis recommend. Without us both getting too adversarial about this, I would say that it's simply a question of how close to the Petrov Model you want to strive to be. I honestly don't think that Bubka or Petrov would agree with Hysong and McGinnis on this point.

My basic disagreement is that a vaulter should NOT be trying to bend the pole ... either before takeoff or after ... by bottom arm pressure. You MAY actually bend the pole a LITTLE bit more that way, but the net effect is that you're going to delay your swing ... and let the pole get ahead of you. That will lead to a tuck. Yech.

I would rather focus on what you need to do to "roll the pole" ... namely whip your trail leg down and then up (circularly), and keep everything (your entire body) moving in a forwards/upwards direction. NO PAUSES! NO TUCK! I will even go so far as to say that pressure as you describe with the bottom hand ... which you claim is not the same as blocking out ... I will agree that it's not as BAD as blocking out ... but it's still bad ... you're still introducing a passive time delay into your vault ... which you pay dearly for when the pole gets ahead of you.

At that point of the vault, you don't need more bend ... instead, you need to KEEP THE POLE MOVING! :idea:

Kirk
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby dougb » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:04 pm

Hi Kirk

What i described is exactly what Bubka does. And Hooker, and Walker, and ......

Doug Balcomb
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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:40 pm

Ok, so here's an idea. We all can see that jumps taken by elite vaulters using the petrov model (or most other models for that matter) their left arm is fully extended during the portion of their wing in which the trail leg passes through the chord of the pole. Where the debate appears to be is whether it is active pushing, or rather the vaulter hanging on with the left (bottom) hand and being pulled into an extended position by the bending of the pole. My question is, does it matter? If your arm becomes elongated by the pull of the pole, would it even matter if you pushed? If you hung on a high bar such that your arms were fully extended, and then pushed up, would it make any difference? I'm sitting in a hotel right now so I can't really test this, but my current theory is that if you don't need to push with the bottom arm in order for it to become elongated during the swing, then trying to push with it will have little to no consequence on the mechanics of the vault. It might be distracting though, i don't know. Just a thought.

Also, Kirk I would image the point of the LoJo video was when he said that the most important thing for young vaulters to do is to come into the plant with a "good left arm." Whether Mr. Johnson is correct, and what his idea of a "good left arm" entails is up for debate however.
-Nick

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Re: Bottom arm discussion continues...

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:50 pm

Would it make a difference if the arm was pulling down and that increased the bend of the pole thus making it appear straight? Isometric contraction? I can tell hanging, pushing, and pulling all are very very different things and cause very different things to happen.
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