Sail Pieces

[Lax PV]

So everyone on here knows about the sail piece and all. My roommate and I had a lengthy conversation about the "Oklahoma Manifesto" (pretty sweet to see something new on here actually) and (I believe) there is a part where they talk about cutting poles and looking at height of the sail piece that a pole has.

Now it is clear that the higher the sail piece, the higher the pole will bend. Thats just simple physics, more fiber glass = more material to bend.

So my question is, does anyone keep track of where the sail piece is? I know a lot of the Bell Athletic guys does it, and I think it is a great idea, except you have to strip the pole of its nice shiny wrapping to find it. For an elite, or simply technically sound vaulter, (whether that athletes genetic maximum is 16' or 20') the flex number sometimes just isn't enough. The height of the sail piece can influence heavily on whether an athlete can get on a pole or not.

Maybe ESSX has some insight on this last idea. How come the pole manufacturers don't label the sail piece dimensions on the top of a pole? It could take 3 numbers by convention. The long side of the trapezoidal shape -- the distance from the bottom of the pole to the bottom of the "short side" of the trapezoid -- and then the distance to the top apex of the the trapezoid. Simple as [144-96-108] in inches or metric.

The only company that I have heard cuts the fiber glass with the same dimensions everytime is ESSX, which I think is a great fundamental idea in equipment. The stiffness means little if the pole is constructed differently (anyone who has jumped on a CATAPOLE could afirm this). Do other companies do this kind of stuff now?

[Barto]

The other manufacturers are all very aware of the neccesity to be consistent, precise, and accurate with their patterns. Every pole manufactured in North America is a quality product.

[vaultmd]

Now it is clear that the higher the sail piece, the higher the pole will bend. Thats just simple physics, more fiber glass = more material to bend.

Actually, the guys that cut poles raise the bend by lowering the thick part of the sail piece.

[rainbowgirl28]

Now it is clear that the higher the sail piece, the higher the pole will bend. Thats just simple physics, more fiber glass = more material to bend.

As someone else pointed out, the opposite is true.

So my question is, does anyone keep track of where the sail piece is? I know a lot of the Bell Athletic guys does it, and I think it is a great idea, except you have to strip the pole of its nice shiny wrapping to find it. For an elite, or simply technically sound vaulter, (whether that athletes genetic maximum is 16' or 20') the flex number sometimes just isn't enough. The height of the sail piece can influence heavily on whether an athlete can get on a pole or not.

You should talk to dj about this.

Maybe ESSX has some insight on this last idea. How come the pole manufacturers don't label the sail piece dimensions on the top of a pole? It could take 3 numbers by convention. The long side of the trapezoidal shape -- the distance from the bottom of the pole to the bottom of the "short side" of the trapezoid -- and then the distance to the top apex of the the trapezoid. Simple as [144-96-108] in inches or metric.

Uhh because that is part of their top secret information about how they make their poles.

I mean if one manufacturer really wants to know how another is making a sailpiece, they can burn the pole and extract it, but that is not practical to do all the time.

But in a more practical sense, if they started putting that information on the pole, they would have customers requesting certain dimensions which would be difficult for a wide variety of reasons (customers not understanding what they are asking for, increased cost in making custom orders, messing up the flex #, etc)

The only company that I have heard cuts the fiber glass with the same dimensions everytime is ESSX, which I think is a great fundamental idea in equipment. The stiffness means little if the pole is constructed differently (anyone who has jumped on a CATAPOLE could afirm this). Do other companies do this kind of stuff now?

This statement doesn't make any sense. All manufacturers are consistent with how they make their sail pieces. The diemensions of the sail piece vary slightly because that is how they make the flex numbers vary. It is a very precise thing. They all use patterns and such.

ESSX makes Catapoles nowadays, but I am assuming you are talking about older Catapoles.


I am moving this to the equipment forum since it has to do with equipment, not a direct discussion on how equipment influences technique.

[Bruce Caldwell]

Maybe ESSX has some insight on this last idea. How come the pole manufacturers don't label the sail piece dimensions on the top of a pole? It could take 3 numbers by convention. The long side of the trapezoidal shape -- the distance from the bottom of the pole to the bottom of the "short side" of the trapezoid -- and then the distance to the top apex of the the trapezoid. Simple as [144-96-108] in inches or metric.

REPLY
That is a great one we could publish our pattern and include a copy of it with every pole LOL
When we first built poles we did like the others did just put the ring on the pole in the same place. But this made the poles all inconsistent.
When a pole is trimmed on the ends you need to maintain some consistency so each pole is the same properties.
We found a way to do this as the sail will float in the beginning process before it becomes cured. And we have no control of where it may end up. The movement is very little but we measure from the top of the short side to the butt for pattern work and maintain that percentage throughout the line. Yes we could save a little money and cut most all the patterns the same but then the short side would be different on all poles.
We also measure from the top of the short side to the top of the pole in order to place the top ring this maintains a consistent percentage too. That is why you see the ring in different locations. But this makes it consistent Some 2" down some even 4-5" down.

You never have to cut off the bottom of a properly designed pole to get it to roll over for you with proper technique. The length of the total sail and the length of the short side are important also we do all we can to maintain a consistent measure related to mandrel size.

What we consider as the right pole is one that when you move to a longer one or a stiffer one it bends, rolls, and acts the same except stiffer everything you expect. If the pole has a different hoop wrap size, body wrap size, wider sail, wider short side than the one before
It will take a few days to adjust to the timing of the pole.
We want the vaulter to just keep jumping with the same timing. So making poles with similar properties is expensive, time consuming and always custom.
However in the long run we see benefit that the jumper can feel the first time they use a properly built pole.
We say it is better to have a pole give you the SKYTIME you need to get over the bar rather than a pole that will throw a 100 lbs weight higher in the air than other brands.
That just does not seem like vaulting to me
SKYTIME is the secret to a good pole AND GOOD POLE SELECTION.
SKYTIME Keyword; The time to get penetration over the bar without coming down on the crossbar. This action can be related to pole design and it also can be related to getting the perfect timing of the 2 pendulums with proper pole selection and technique.
THE LAW OF THE DOUBLE PENDULUM Always remember the law of the double pendulum
If the vaulter who swings gets to the bar before the pole does ( stand to the side see if the pole swing or pole speed is enough to get the pole under the vaulter and not out away from the bar) this means they are on too stiff of a pole or they are holding higher than their ability. Lowering the grip makes the pole sometime too stiff so the need to drop down in length may be necessary to get the POP on top needed to be able to push a 1-2’ push off. This will give you more power from the pole as you can now use a pole at your weight or stronger. Timing the vaulter pendulum with the pole pendulum gives the greatest amount of energy return than any other style of jumping. MORE SKYTIME
A vaulter who gets to the bar before the pole will think they need a faster returning pole and some manufacturers have made these poles to come back fast to meet the needs of these vaulters’ and coaches requests.

It is my opinion that a pole that returns real fast and throws a weight higher in the air is a pole made for a two stage style vault and not one that will support the fluidity and efficiency of the double pendulum style jumping! BRUCE CALDWELL

[Lax PV]

Apparently I have been misinformed by multiple sources I found to be credible

I am a little confused now though. How does cutting the bottom of a pole raise the sail piece? Is the argument that it raises the sail piece relative to the pole's over all length?

[superpipe]

vaultmd didn't say cutting the bottom of the pole would raise the sail piece. He said it would raise the bend ( lower the the sail piece ).

[Lax PV]

vaultmd didn't say cutting the bottom of the pole would raise the sail piece. He said it would raise the bend ( lower the the sail piece ).

That seems counter-intuitive to me I guess. "Lower the sail piece to raise the bend." Taking this logic to the extreme, a 14' stick has a lower sail piece than a 5m, so it would bend higher? I am totally confused now...

[Bruce Caldwell]

If the energy is bending the pole uniformly and the stiffest area of the pole being approximately 42-45" in the lower middle of a pole. If one cuts the pole off at the bottom by 3" (NOT RECOMMENDED) the bend or energy will move up to an area that does not have enough reinforcement as the area it was concentrated on before. So the pole will bend higher and the center and top of the sail piece is now lower.
My concern about doing such a thing is, if you take off properly you might just send the energy higher within the pole, at a point just below the Bottom Handgrip and the pole will not be able to hold the load and collapse.