Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby golfdane » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:32 am

tsorenson wrote:6P,
I am not altius, but I think he and I agree about this particular aspect of technique. I feel that this (Greg D.'s first jump) is exactly the type of flexion that is desired to accelerate the swing. The flexion increases the "snap" and the leg still locks out to its maximum length through the chord of the pole, which is where it matters! Those who try to keep it long without the flexion end up having to tuck because their swing is too slow. I believe that most of the guys you listed actually do snap the knee into the swing to varying degrees...Tarasov the least.

The hips still stay back just fine with this degree of flexion, and Tim Mack demonstrated that an incredibly fast swing can be generated with a relatively large flexion at the knee. Try it on your rope/rings/highbar swing drills, and on your small poles/short run, and see whether it helps you get the swing moving faster or not?

Tom


Agree.
We can learn a great deal from watching a golf swing, as to why a flexion at the knee, can have positive effects on the swing. Ben "The Hawk" Hogan had one of the smoothest swings of all time, and still hit the ball pretty far and straight (and could shape the flight of the ball as well):
http://youtu.be/nWLLPKiSMRk
The hinge in his wrist, is what gives great clubhead speed at the the moment where the face hits the ball. Try locking the wrist (gripping to tight on the club severely impacts clubhead speed due to the fact, that it tightens up the wrist), and swing without hinging. The result is loss of clubhead speed.
Now, in response to Mack's trail leg: His flexion at the knee should increase the speed of his swing at the bottom of the arc (when he hits the cord of the pole), which should in fact compress the pole (the advantage of a powerful intentional swing), and add lots of energy. His tuck is definately not a result of an inferior swing. Now, the reason why I wouldn't advocate hinging this much is, that I has been taught to hit the pole with a solid body at take-off. This include the lower extremities. IMHO, at take-off, should the mass of the entire body be pushing the pole upwards and inwards. "Letting go" of any part of your body after take-off, lets energy bleed out, and the chances are, that you cannot recover fully from this loss. Mack's flexion IMHO lets him recover some of this upward and inward momentum, and utilize it in his swing (but I think there's still a loss in this conversion).

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby joebro391 » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:18 pm

dj wrote:That doesn't mean they "teach" bending the knee (to the contrary) it is more like tom said… you finish the takeoff and swing as fast as possible…

Okay, maybe this was where I was getting hung up on. I feel like Alan, and maybe though that Bemiller, TEACHES the vaulter to bend at the knee and then swing (which is what I absolutely disagree with). But I agree that there will always be some natural hinge at the knee after take-off and can lead to a solid swing. I just feel that it should be as minimal as possible. Like dj and Tom said, the vaulter wants to finish takeoff and swing as fast as possible (not think, "okay, i got to bend the knee...now swing"). If there's some slight bend, like I said twice already, I'm good with that.

golfdane wrote:Now, the reason why I wouldn't advocate hinging this much is, that I has been taught to hit the pole with a solid body at take-off. This include the lower extremities. IMHO, at take-off, should the mass of the entire body be pushing the pole upwards and inwards. "Letting go" of any part of your body after take-off, lets energy bleed out, and the chances are, that you cannot recover fully from this loss. Mack's flexion IMHO lets him recover some of this upward and inward momentum, and utilize it in his swing (but I think there's still a loss in this conversion).

This is exactly my point. I will admit right now that Mack's swing appears to be the fastest that I've ever seen. But due to the hips coming through, he loses some energy which is why I feel if there is any flexion, it should be very minor.

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:34 am

Joe, The maximum force of your back flexion/core muscles is a fixed amount. If you are contracting your core muscles as you swing with as much force as possible, that force is going to go into the pole one way or another as you invert. That force is going to relate to the speed of your inversion, but also the length of the pendulum. being able to maximize your swing speed and pendulum length relates to how well you finish your take off.

So tucking near the top of the vault does NOT necessarily mean you are putting less energy into the system, but only that as the pendulum shortens, speed increases, and force hypothetically stays the same. You could try to argue that "well if you keep your trail leg straight, you'd put more force into the pole". Correct, but your core muscles are only so strong. They can only contract with that fixed amount of force, so as long as you set up your take off to maximize the force/time (impulse) of your swing, you can only hope to maintain that force/time near the top of the vault. That is why as long as you focus on keeping your trail leg straight, but more importantly focus on covering the pole and moving up the pole as quickly as possible, you are bound to be maximizing the force of your core muscles during inversion, regardless of whether your knees bend a little. If you swing fast enough initially, this energy can overcome the loss of a swing that hinges at the knees a little. But it's only done if the focus is on setting yourself up with a good take off, and swinging/covering as fast as possible. Still no pause.
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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby dj » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:28 am

vault3rb0y

!!! how did you get so smart... ; )

Tim's impluse was pretty good... and helped him "makeup" for a slight "under" (10cm?) takeoff...

and i think the "slight under" leads to "hips coming through"...

but a fast swing and good use of the "hands" on inversion.. puts him using the physics well...

dj

ps....

……….!!! how did you get so smart... ; ).

By the way this was said sincerely and with respect… this is a great, on target, comment…

On target…..

Joe, The maximum force of your back flexion/core muscles is a fixed amount. If you are contracting your core muscles as you swing with as much force as possible, that force is going to go into the pole one way or another as you invert. That force is going to relate to the speed of your inversion, but also the length of the pendulum. being able to maximize your swing speed and pendulum length relates to how well you finish your take off.

So tucking near the top of the vault does NOT necessarily mean you are putting less energy into the system, but only that as the pendulum shortens, speed increases, and force hypothetically stays the same.


but more importantly focus on covering the pole and moving up the pole as quickly as possible, you are bound to be maximizing the force of your core muscles during inversion

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:43 pm

dj wrote:vault3rb0y

!!! how did you get so smart... ; )

Tim's impluse was pretty good... and helped him "makeup" for a slight "under" (10cm?) takeoff...

and i think the "slight under" leads to "hips coming through"...

but a fast swing and good use of the "hands" on inversion.. puts him using the physics well...

dj

ps....

……….!!! how did you get so smart... ; ).

By the way this was said sincerely and with respect… this is a great, on target, comment…

On target…..

Joe, The maximum force of your back flexion/core muscles is a fixed amount. If you are contracting your core muscles as you swing with as much force as possible, that force is going to go into the pole one way or another as you invert. That force is going to relate to the speed of your inversion, but also the length of the pendulum. being able to maximize your swing speed and pendulum length relates to how well you finish your take off.

So tucking near the top of the vault does NOT necessarily mean you are putting less energy into the system, but only that as the pendulum shortens, speed increases, and force hypothetically stays the same.


but more importantly focus on covering the pole and moving up the pole as quickly as possible, you are bound to be maximizing the force of your core muscles during inversion


Well..... I think he got so smart by listening and discussing and thinking and not getting discouraged from the time he started posting in this forum a few years ago. I could sense that he had a fine mind and a sincere desire to learn.

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:41 pm

1) Once the vaulter tucks the legs, they stop putting energy into the system.


I think Vaulterboy's answer to this is as good as any. But I want to add my belief that once the swing has reached its maximum speed, when the strength used to accelerate it is at maximum force, there is no reason to stay long. The length of the trail leg is essential to creating maximum force, but once that potential has been reached, there is no more power to be had. Then it is okay to shorten the radius of the leg by tucking, speeding up its rotation without costing energy. The law of conservation of angular momentum applies here.

2) If the vaulter stops putting energy into the system, the pole will begin to unbend. Many tuck&shooters tend to tuck before there hips are even with their shoulders and therefore now have to fight the recoil of the pole to finish inversion. In turn, they're not in the ideal position to finish the jump and lose potential height in their push-off.


Joe dial pushed off 53" with a tuck that looks very much like Renaud's. Still the world record as far as I know for that aspect of the vault.

I am not saying anyone should or needs to tuck. Just once again trying to clarify the difference between the error of a tuck and shoot necessitated by a poor approach and takeoff, and the tuck that may be a simple style difference (Renaud does have a free takeoff) and has been a feature of a number of very effective vaults.

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:06 pm

I belive that the tuck accelerates the return of the pole because the center of mass stays lower longer. This is the secret to a 4'+ push off.

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby tsorenson » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:05 pm

http://youtu.be/6Eb4uVQSTq4

This is exactly the type of swing I try to teach. The flexion at the knee is a result of a booming upward takeoff. His inversion is superior because he covers the pole so quickly and keeps the hips moving up through the entire vault with no pauses. He is pretty much fully inverted above the pole when he is directly over the box, but the aggressive drive of the hips upward keeps the pole moving forward.
Tim, I have a great deal of respect for you as one of the best contributors to this site, and I know that what you are saying can work, but I don't think tucking is necessary for a 4'+ push.

Cheers,
Tom

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby dj » Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:45 pm

hello

i believe tom and tim are both correct...

i feel the "speed" of the tuck and shoot from flat-back position..is the only factor that makes what they are saying seem different...

I have studied numerious vaults of Hartwig (and joe/tim) and the only difference I could find between his average and his "good" jumps was the speed/time –less time..sometimes hundreds of seconds… that it took for him to complete- "cocking" the hips back and shooting high above the grip.. Joe in fact was the "master'.. he rolled the hips back so fast that if you blinked you missed it…

I feel this action, as tim alluded to, does two things.. it delays the "un-bend" for a nana-second and it "unloads" the pole just as fast and in unison with the vaulter who is shooting, feet first skyward.

And in Joes case put him 53 inches above the grip…….

DJ

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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:24 pm

Thanks you guys, that mean's a lot when I consider all the experience you all have in the vault.

I learned from doing, asking, and then learning from you guys, my coaches and my professors at Penn State. A lot of credit to Vladimir Zatsiorsky this semester as well teaching a very relevant class I'm in, I'm even looking forward to for some interesting gymnastics exercises from him very soon!!

One point I want to bring up that has got me thinking related to my previous statement....

There is strength (or maximal Force possible), then there is power (force x velocity), and the force you are able to produce in a given time (impulse). The difference is commonly called the "explosive strength deficit", but it raises an interesting question in terms of inversion training and theory. We obviously train to swing as long/fast as possible, and our training includes raw strength development through core training, but also increasing the rate of force development (RFD) by fast swing drills. In any exercise, there is an optimal point on a force/velocity curve (as the force (wt) of a dumbbell increases, for instance, the speed you can move that dumbbell decreases) where the power is maximized. This would be called the maximal maximorum force, and these parameters of exercise are where maximal force can be seen in an exercise. For example, can you put more POWER into throwing a penny, a golfball, or a shot put? Most likely it is somewhere around the golf ball or a baseball sized ball.

Now in the vault, the same principle can apply. Are we looking to maximize the instantaneous force we put into the pole, or the power over the interval from take off to push off? It seems to me that we are looking for maximal power, and I wonder whether this is worth further investigation in the vault? Most great vaulters have the core strength to swing extremely fast and long to the top of the pole (as long as they aren't purposefully shortening their legs for increased pole stiffness), but during this extremely fast swing, are they really reaching their Maximal power, or is there an explosive strength deficit due to their legs being too long (too much force, too little velocity) or their legs swinging very fast but perhaps not actually being very forceful compared to their POSSIBLE force production (too little force, too much velocity)? If so, is there a pole selection (grip/stiffness) that would allow an athlete to minimize their explosive strength deficit?

This is all stuff I'm simply pulling from my science of training athletes class this semester and applying (perhaps out of context) to the vault. Just thought I'd get some interesting ideas going again.
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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby altius » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:02 am

Now 3 PO while this is all very interesting, when it comes to your own performance never forget what happened to the millipede when the ant asked him which leg he moved first when he decided to move!

However if you want to continue to research this is I suggest that you consider the potential energy transfer to the pelvis during inversion of a straight leg cf a bent leg. My belief is that Bubkas technique exploited biomechanics to the nth degree -even if neither he nor Vitali knew that. So if he swept his left leg athletically straight from take off until he was vertical on the pole he gained some advantage from doing that. Not sure if you have the black and white film of him covering the pole -and then driving up and AWAY FROM the bar - that I included in the last dvd - but it must be food for thought.

Anyway best of luck with your profs!!!!!
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Re: Could Gataullin have put more energy into the system??

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:25 pm

You're absolutely right Altius, and in my own athletic performance I will simply do what the best of the best (including all of you, and my own coaches) tell me to do. There will be years and years left to speculate after that. The last thing I'll be thinking about when I vault is a force/velocity curve, ill just think "COVER FAST AND LONG!!".

Then.... during my classes I will speculate on what you said. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.
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