SafetyMax Box collar

[charlie]

I think Kirk is right , that the corners of the back of the box can definately slow or kick the rotation of the pole to either side, but like jan says; it would take a act of congress to get them rounded. ( I personally don't trust congress) For the present time though, for safety( Make the pit to FIT the box would be a vast improvement!!)

[~jj~]

I have often wondered why some kids go to the side after a lined up plant and take off. However i have never thought of of pole pressing the side of the box and pushing the vaulter to the side. Perhaps it would be better is the sides flared out slightly more? But keep the back at 105 degrees?
Opinions?
~jan~

[KirkB]

I have often wondered why some kids go to the side after a lined up plant and take off. However i have never thought of of pole pressing the side of the box and pushing the vaulter to the side. Perhaps it would be better is the sides flared out slightly more? But keep the back at 105 degrees?
Opinions?
~jan~

So you're leaning towards Shape "D"?

Yes, let's hear some more opinions!

Kirk

[charlie]

I would prefer B with a little larger circle!!!

[vaultwest]

Not to be a downer but I say, "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Seems to me that if you looked at all the good jumps versus bad jumps the box would be near the bottom ( no pun intended) of reasons for either. I just don't think it is an issue. Perhaps a different shaped planting box could increase vaulitng efficiency, perhaps not. Maybe it could reduce wear on the bottom of the pole, but one thing I feel pretty sure about is that needing to replace the planting box at all our facilities would be a near sure fire way to allow the people that are ready to get rid of the vault in high schools way more ammo to accomplish banning the vault than they need, not to mention the added difficulty of manufacturing these different shaped boxes and the extra expense involved. I say leave it well enough alone
Vault On

[KirkB]

I have often wondered why some kids go to the side after a lined up plant and take off. However i have never thought of of pole pressing the side of the box and pushing the vaulter to the side. Perhaps it would be better is the sides flared out slightly more? But keep the back at 105 degrees?
Opinions?
~jan~

Jan, I had many problems with my over-bent pole hitting the pit, and hitting the corner of the box. It was easy enough to shift the pit over to the right for my lefty technique ... since all the righties had it shifted to the left for their bends. But I would still hit the corner of the BOX with my pole. I fixed this by aiming the pole to the LEFT corner of the box ... so the pole could bend to the RIGHT corner with an effective 136 degree bend ... as opposed to the 120 degree bend that I would get if my pole was planted in the RIGHT corner of the box.

While my personal woes of hitting the top edge of the box might be historically interesting, it MIGHT not be that important TODAY. Today, poles bend differently (higher), and vaulters are encouraged to not over-bend them.

What I'm really trying to figure out is if there's STILL some issues with poles hitting the side (or front) edges of the box.

VaultWest, I think you're getting wa-a-a-ay ahead of this survey. We need to determine whether or not there's an actual problem to be solved first ... before we just say "if it ain't broke don't fix it" and then squelch the discussion with the finanacial issues if every box in the USA needs to be upgraded. We're not there yet.

In fact, I would even argue that a box with a "better" shape could be manufactured WITHOUT additional cost ... but I don't want to get ahead of this survey ... yet. In due time ... if it's deemed that today's poles impacting the top edges of today's boxes is a hazard worthy of a design improvement ... then I will disclose a design that does exactly that.

But first, do we have a modern-day problem or not? Do you prefer design A, B, C, or D?

If an improved design can save even a SINGLE serious accident per DECADE, then in my mind, that's enough to at least DISCUSS the pros and cons of alternate designs ... especially if the design improvements aren't expensive.

I'll stop my rant now.

Kirk

[vaultwest]

Kirk,
Sorry but you are incorrect about the manufacturing. I have worked for 4 track and field manufacturing companies and the tooling and extra steps involved in making these other designs would increase the cost. Just check out the added cost in the Gill Catalog for their Cast aluminum vault box that has rounded inside corners.

My other point is at least here in the USA we need to be careful about changing things in the vault with the associated added costs. The vault is already such an expensive event that it is often on the chopping block with administrators that would love to get rid of it. Many school districts and one state has already done just that, here in this country. Changes can start with just a silly discussion like this one and chances are most likely nothing would ever happen but if some how this got some momentum and became a movement that ended up mandating a new kind of box, I feel that it would really hurt our event. I sell track equipment to high schools and daily have to deal with the precarious nature of out beloved event, so I just don't want to see changes made unless they really are needed for safety reasons. I have never seen or heard of any vaulter at any level that had a problem in their vault caused by a properly installed, regulation vault box. Problems from Bad pits, wrong pole, bad coaching, bad technique - definitely, a vault box - No.
Vault On

[KirkB]

This issue is worth my time to debate!

Sorry but you are incorrect about the manufacturing. ...

The cast aluminum box is about $800, and the formed aluminum box is about $400. This is a significant discrepancy, but it's not the manufacturing process or the dollar difference that I'm thinking of. Just bear with me, and in due time I will disclose a design that can be manufactured for very close to the $400 ... if not less. Wouldn't you prefer a safer box design if there's very little difference in cost?

If you don't mind me saying this, VaultWest ... you may be too close to the problem to see this analytically and objectively. You have to think "outside the box"! Pardon the pun!

... we need to be careful about changing things in the vault with the associated added costs. ... Changes can start with just a silly discussion like this one and chances are most likely nothing would ever happen but if some how this got some momentum and became a movement that ended up mandating a new kind of box, I feel that it would really hurt our event.

Hmm ... sounds like fear-mongering to me! Starting with coloring this discussion as "silly" and ending with the catch phrase "it would hurt our event" that pleads to our emotions ... without any factual substance.

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself -- nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. --- F. D. Roosevelt

Why would you be afraid of a better box design ... if it improved PV safety?

And who said anything about "added costs"? And who said anything about "mandating a new kind of box"? You're jumping w-a-a-a-a-a-y ahead! If a new ... even more expensive ... box DOES get mandated, it will be becuz the added safety is worth the rule changes and added cost! What's so bad about that!

I just don't want to see changes made unless they really are needed for safety reasons.

Me too! We agree on this point!

I have never seen or heard of any vaulter at any level that had a problem in their vault caused by a properly installed, regulation vault box. Problems from Bad pits, wrong pole, bad coaching, bad technique - definitely, a vault box - No.

Whoah! You sound like a tobacco salesman trying to convince the American public that smoking doesn't cause cancer! Ha ha!

If you're saying that your vote is for Design A, then I'll take that as a valid answer ... you don't think that the 120 side angles have EVER caused a SINGLE accident. OK, that's your honest opinion.

Warning: Rant starts here ...

But to say that regulation boxes don't cause accidents? That's a very blatant statement! For all the money that pit mfrs spend on ridiculously HUGE front buns ... making them practically as big as the main landing area ... I just don't buy your argument that there's no money or need or interest in improving the safety of the box itself (and the area immediately surrounding it ... including its top edges). IMHO, the PLANTING BOX is the one remaining hard surface area that the vaulter IS NOT adequately protected from! The pits are bigger, the front buns are bigger, the standards are covered ... but THE BOX IS STILL AN EXTREME HAZARD! (Despite the Skydex box and the SafetyMax.)

To use your argument, if you improve your pole, your coaching, and your technique, then you should not need those HUGE expensive front buns either ... becuz you'll never stall out! Hogwash!

Yikes ... I'm on another rant! I'll stop now.

Kirk

[~jj~]

I for one like "A" the best. I think we could slightly open the side angles only. I will build one and try it. I seriously doubt it would look much different than todays standard. But it would obviously offer less surface area for the bent pole to push aginst. If this can improve "ceterdness", and if it can be done in a low cost way, i will pitch it.


~jan~

[vaultwest]

Kirk
I did not attack you personally I just stated my thoughts I don't appreciate being referred to as a tobacco salesman. We sell a perfectly fine steel vault box for approximately $200.00 quite a bit cheaper than that $800.00 for a specialized box and If you think the cost of having to cut out the existing box and replace it with a much more expensive box at every high school and college in the US would not cause problems that is your opinion I just know what my market is and how much of a problem that would be. I have vaulted for 44 years and coached for 32 and I just don't think the shape of the box is an issue especially now that we have box collars and the even better Safety Max collar that Jan has developed that area is also much safer. So I am done with this!

[KirkB]

Kirk
... I don't appreciate being referred to as a tobacco salesman. ...

VaultWest, I'm sorry you didn't appreciate my analogy (joke) about the tobacco salesman. The "Ha ha!" at the end should have given you a clue that I was joking.

If you can make and sell a "perfectly fine steel box" for $200, then I can show you a safer design that you can make and sell for about the same price. I only referred to the $400 becuz that's Gill's price for their standard aluminum box.

Let's collaborate on this ... no need for any friction here. Please understand that I'm VERY passionate about PV safety ... ESPECIALLY re the planting box ... as I walk with a limp today due to 3 serious falls into the box. These injuries ended my PV career. So sorry for my rant ... I did not intend to direct it at you ... you were just in the line of fire!

To me, improved safety trumps cost. But even so, I'm telling you that cost isn't as much of an issue as you think it is. If it was, then why are there so many mega-sized front buns today?

For the sake of argument, let's say a new box design WOULD cost $100 more than any existing boxes. So reduce the size of the front bun by $100 worth of foam, and IT'S THE SAME COST!

Tell me where vaulters land THE MOST, and where they have the MOST SERIOUS injuries ... is it in and around THE BOX, or is it becuz the front buns were a couple feet too short!!!

Please understand that I like the HUGE pits. It's just that if your budget for PV equipment is fixed, I'd RATHER spend some of those dollars to protect the area in and around the box ... better than it's protected today!

Here's an example of Fuzion's pit, which is apparently one of the biggest ... with front buns 10-6 in front of the box ... 21-0 across! http://www.fuzionathletics.com/indoor_training.php

Fuzion Pit with Large Front Buns.jpg (41.49 KiB) Viewed 5218 times

Fuzion Athletics owns the largest pit's manufactured. Blue side wall with yellow top pad, and of course our sweet logo across the entire top. This will allow you to train and compete on one of the biggest and safest landing area in the world.

I'm assuming that there's additional padding over the standards that's not shown?

Kirk

[charlie]

Still very simple!! Do what ucs does now and make the pit to fit the box!!!