talented kid

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charlie
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby charlie » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:05 pm

Kirk, I have been teaching this for 30 years with tons of success and will continue!I Used the same technique to win back to back Masters World Championships and to break Maurice Hovions age 39 world Record 15'9" with a jump of 15'93/4 weighing 139 on a 15'6"165 holding 13'9" running like a snail, but I could dam sure load(Early tall bent arm press up and to the left! 60 HS State Champions 12 Div 1 scholarships!!! NO fatalities! We will further this conversation at Nationals in Jacksonville! You are buying the BEER!!!(protein)

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:53 pm

I'm hearing lots of hype, but I'm not getting any scientific, biomechnical, physics explanations of the 2 concerns that Stipke raised, and that I agreed with.

I wasn't asking for any off-topic replies. What I want are the answers to 2 simple questions:

1. Grandevaulter, you wrote "It is not possible to whip kick starting with a straight leg."

Why is this not possible? Is the video proof of SB and RL not good enough for you? Or are you saying that they MUST bend their trail legs purposely, before they swing?

From my observation of their vids (and from my own first-hand experience in vaulting this way) I know for a fact that you can whip-kick without purposely bending your trail leg knee. It's done with the rectus femoris muscles. So I will ask you once again to please explain yourself. We seem to be talking past each other.

2. Charlie, I know of your career record, and I applaud you for it. I also applaud your enthusiasm. But that doesn't explain Newton's law "For every action, there is an equal and opposite re-action" as it relates to a vaulter swinging on a pole.

I am saying that any off-center pressure against the pole will cause an equal and opposite reaction, thus forcing the vaulter off-center.

Please explain how you're defying Newton's Law. Maybe you feel the pole move to the side as you're applying pressure to it, so you think you're purposely pressing it to the left? :confused:

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:13 am

Kirk, Please quote me specifically saying "It is not possible to whip kick with a straight leg".

Then watch this video:
http://youtu.be/MTub-Hko3Uo

Tarasov's 6m jumps show more flex in the knee than RL and I believe SB' flexed a tad bit more later in his career.

Come on now Kirk, Alan was pretty sharp at 80. He wouldn't be advocating a flexed knee if it wasn't optimal.

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KirkB
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:42 am

grandevaulter wrote:Kirk, Please quote me specifically saying "It is not possible to whip kick with a straight leg".

Sure. It's here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=51322&p=213678&hilit=not+possible+whip+kick+starting+straight+leg#p213678. Just scroll down to your Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:55 pm post on this link.

grandevaulter wrote: ... watch this video:
http://youtu.be/MTub-Hko3Uo

Grandevaulter, thanks for going to the trouble of creating and posting this vid specifically in response to my above posts.

I actually agree with you. You have picked out a slight flex of RL's trail leg knee. I agree that it's not PERFECTLY straight. If you had said that he's doing this purposely, I might (I said "might") even agree with you!

However, my assertion is that any flex of the knee like this is actually a flaw. Yes, a flaw! Launder didn't teach optimal vaulting technique. Rather, he taught practical vaulting technique more suited to young aspiring vaulters. Yes, you heard me right. Launder did not teach any elite vaulters or WR holders. He only documented what he understood of Petrov's coaching of Bubka.

I have noted this (my assertion of a straight trail leg being optimal) in my Bryde Bend posts (years ago), and there hasn't been anything that's changed my mind since. Not even RL's WR.

But I think we're getting quite far off the point of what Stipke should do (or not do) in coaching his young protege, so we'd better not hijack his thread any longer. If you wish to continue this discussion, let's do it in a new thread.

Let's agree that RL purposely bends his knee a bit (even though I think he'd be better off if he didn't). However, I still assert that he uses his rectus femoris muscles much more than the average vaulter (so does SB), and the bending of the knee is somewhat incidental to his swinging technique.

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby PoleVaultStipke » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:18 am

hi guys,

I leave you guys for 1 Belgian night and you guys wrote me a small book! Shows how passionate you all are. It is a very interesting discussion because I have a clear image of what I want the jump to look like but I am getting a deeper understanding on why it should be like that.

I must admit it is not easy getting the kids to do heaps of small simple drills because they just want to jump high all the time. Especially the kid in the video. But I do agree that it is not a good idea to focus on performance instead of good technique. Thank you for reminding me why I keep pushing them in the sand pit ;) .

I do have another question. I studied Master in kinesiology and have a number of training degrees. One of the main principles of many different sports is that you open young athletes up to a very wide range of movements. The idea is to develop a very large set of motor skills. I think of it like building a pyramid from the ground up where the base are all kinds of pole vault related movements and the peak is absolute perfection of an truly elite vault. Now in gymnastics you will all be willing to accept this approach if I say that I do A LOT of basic movement like handstands and rolls, flikflak, carthwheels, salto front/back etc. – next to or before narrowing down to the specific gymnastic pole vault drills. HOWEVER: If I were to do this with a pole, I expect to get some eyebrows raised. Something I do with the small ones, is organise a little competition on the pit where they get 4 steps and they have to get as far as possible on the matrass. Furthest body part counts. In doing so, they can choose the length of their run up and their grip-height (within margins of safety of course!). This way, I hope to improve their understanding of what grip does and taking of at the exact spot. I always explain why this and that is better etc…
Gentleman, load your weapons!
How I wish I could invite you all over or join you to follow your discussions over some good Belgian beers!
Thank you again for these discussions, it is very much appreciated!
Greatness is build one step at a time!

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:12 pm

PoleVaultStipke wrote: ... flikflak ...

I had to google this:
Dutch To English - flikflak
n. backflip, acrobatic movement in which one tumbles through the air backwards

PoleVaultStipke wrote: HOWEVER: If I were to do this with a pole, I expect to get some eyebrows raised. …

There's nothing wrong with improvising, to teach general fitness or even to teach motions specific to pole vaulting (like the importance of grip). No eyebrows should be raised.

I would only caution you to do this IN ADDITION TO other time-proven PV drills (from BTB2, for example), rather than in place of them.

i.e. Let them (and you) have fun, but don't forget the fundamentals.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:34 pm

KirkB wrote:However, my assertion is that any flex of the knee like this is actually a flaw. Yes, a flaw! Launder didn't teach optimal vaulting technique. Rather, he taught practical vaulting technique more suited to young aspiring vaulters. Yes, you heard me right. Launder did not teach any elite vaulters or WR holders. He only documented what he understood of Petrov's coaching of Bubka.

That is Bull Crap Kirk. ( I don't know the Canadian translation)
Simon Arkell, two time Olympian and Commonwealth games champion.
Patrick Jesser 17' 9" as a Junior Worlds.
Wendy Young 14' 5"
That's not elite enough for you?

He sat in the coaches box with Petrov and Krzesinski many times. He had SB as a guest on more than one occasion. Roman as a guest at his home for extended time. He visited Petrov and Isenbayeva at Formia to shoot a video. So you think they never discussed the flexed knee? Based on your opinion they probably made plans to teach less than optimal technique and give each other high fives and chest bumps. (Celebrations in U.S.A.)

KirkB wrote:But I think we're getting quite far off the point of what Stipke should do (or not do) in coaching his young protege, so we'd better not hijack his thread any longer. If you wish to continue this discussion, let's do it in a new thread.

Oh no you don't "hit and run" and start a new topic.

Stipke put up the vids of the flexed leg and we are directly on topic. Your opinion is not fact, it is just opinion. So Stipke, you can take it from me or take it from Kirk, but I believe if we analyze the 6m club's videos, we will see a flexed leg prior to the whip kick. I'll go out on a limb and say it is intentional.

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:29 pm

PoleVaultStipke wrote: flikflak, carthwheels, salto front/back etc. – next to or before narrowing down to the specific gymnastic pole vault drills. HOWEVER: If I were to do this with a pole, I expect to get some eyebrows raised.

This is a kid that I coached for three years, not all meat and potatoes.
https://youtu.be/mdR0CyWqVjs

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:32 pm

grandevaulter wrote:
Oh no you don't "hit and run" and start a new topic.

I'm fine with keeping the flex of the trail leg on this thread, if Stipke's fine with it too.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, Grandevaulter, and you shouldn't be either.

Peace. :rose:

Kirk
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby PoleVaultStipke » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:24 am

Hi Guys,

I don't mind keeping the discussion here!

*grabs popcorn* ;)
Greatness is build one step at a time!

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby PoleVaultStipke » Mon Jun 01, 2015 5:54 am

Hey guys,

Not the best quality but i wanted to keep you up to date with his progression. We went back to 10 steps (used to be 12) to get a bit mare controll over his technique. Didn't really slow him down ... ;) he cleared 3m41 (11ft 2in) last week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUVNZTf9LLM

Let me know if you feel this is moving in the right direction!

Kind regards,
Steffen
Greatness is build one step at a time!

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby Skyfly » Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:54 am

What are the standards at?


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