talented kid

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PoleVaultStipke
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby PoleVaultStipke » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:39 am

to charlie,

I totally agree. Do you have any good tips regarding this? I try to get them to push the left arm upwards above the head. But i have to admit i have some athletes who block the pole with a straight arm, especially if the grip height is still quite low.

Thanks!
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby charlie » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:46 pm

We do 2 major things in the vault! first , we do 2 step drills where we take a light pole(12' 110) and plant (walk) and PRESS not PUSH the BENT LEFT arm UP and to the LEFT and actually raise up on the toe of the take off foot! we also do ROPE inversions with ankle weights to FULL extension. NO TUCK. I use 4 fingers ( EARLY plant--EARLY PRESS(not block or push) EARY up(not back) EARLY off!!!! When your waist is over the bar, you should have ALREADY left the pole!!!!!!!

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:55 pm

PoleVaultStipke wrote:2 small points really: 1: With this exercise I try to teach them to jump before the pole touches the ground. I feel this is the right way to teach the feeling of pre-jump. 2: both of them tilt their head back, this often leads to loss of tension in the upper body (of course pre jumping in snow might be a bit hard )

This is not the Launder "pre jump drill". But we do practice it on the grass.
PoleVaultStipke wrote:ook very good for 1 small detail: I like to make them keep the knee higher even on the way down. She drops it just a little bit.

Yes I agree with you on this, She'll drop it if I don't stay on her.
PoleVaultStipke wrote:Well obviously she is 2 steps early with the plant and she takes of under. Also her head is way back even before take-off. You have some work here coach! 

She moved back from a 10 to a 12 step. Her internal timing was not prepared to make this adjustment without more practice. (my fault)
PoleVaultStipke wrote:I like the fact that his right arm is extended upon contact of his take-off foot. Good knee and finishes his take-off. This looks good. Teach him to really jump up so that his pole touches the sand after the take-off. Also, there is some work on his running, he needs to get his toes up!

The video of him running without a dorsi-flexed foot is from his first week with me. Second day of sand pit drills in December, still no snow. Rome was not built in one day.
PoleVaultStipke wrote:When his leg is all the way up at the back, he seems to lose tension in his back and he bents his knee. I don’t know if you encourage this but I try to get them to keep the leg fully extended. Power comes from hips and shoulders and not from the knee.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgKfJHQJFVA

The take-off is a bit under (although I know it is really tough to get a young athlete to the perfect take-off spot). He breaks his trail-leg at the knee. Also, het throws his head back which will make it really hard for him to extend to the vertical.

We are working on him whip kicking down from a flexed knee to a straight leg to get him to then swing powerfully to the cord of the pole. It is not possible to whip kick starting with a straight leg.

This particular jump he does not swing his leg straight to the cord of the pole and it is pointed out to him with the Coaches eye tools and then worked on with the rings and swing and turn drills.

Thank you very much for your comments, it appears that you have a good eye. :yes:

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:50 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LMmfZ-N8RE

dmaterial wrote: From the little i can c. It looks good.
Look closer!
dmaterial wrote:Best advice for a young vauler is gymnastics and lots of it.
Learn to run with the pole, plant and take off.

PoleVaultStipke wrote:I try to get them to push the left arm upwards above the head.
He is pushing with the bottom and and pulling with the top. Prying the pole before he leaves the ground. I'd keep my problems for all the Belgium Marks printed. Yes we all have work to do, but if this kid had to jump the dyke from Belgium to Lichtenstein, he may end up in the water. You seem to be able to identify the key positions, but

I look forward to seeing how our young vaulters progress.

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby PoleVaultStipke » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:00 am

Hi,

@ charlie :
we do 2 step drills where we take a light pole(12' 110) and plant (walk) and PRESS not PUSH the BENT LEFT arm UP and to the LEFT and actually raise up on the toe of the take off foot!


Why push it to the left? I actually try to keep them behind the pole as long as possible.

@ Grandevaulter

We are working on him whip kicking down from a flexed knee to a straight leg to get him to then swing powerfully to the cord of the pole. It is not possible to whip kick starting with a straight leg.


Just for drills in the rings? Because i believe there should not be a bent in the knee. I invited 2 friends below :) to give a little demo in the jump. I don't see a bending knee there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhqEdocpfcM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I


I will try to update in a few months to show the kids progression ;)
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:36 pm

PoleVaultStipke wrote: @ Grandevaulter
We are working on him whip kicking down from a flexed knee to a straight leg to get him to then swing powerfully to the cord of the pole. It is not possible to whip kick starting with a straight leg.

Just for drills in the rings? Because i believe there should not be a bent in the knee. I invited 2 friends below :) to give a little demo in the jump. I don't see a bending knee there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhqEdocpfcM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I

Good catch, Stipke!

In these vids, Bubka and Lavillenie both show good stretches and good posture (slight forwards lean) when they start their Cs. They stretch further into the C (driving the chest forwards ever-so-slightly) before whipping out of it. Both vaulters show a VERY SLIGHT bend at the knee when they stretch. This is about as little of a bend as you can expect to achieve.

As Stipke asserted, they are definitely not letting their knees bend, and then straightening them in their whipping action on their downswings. Rather, they are using the rectus femoris muscles to initiate their downswings.

I have explained this in a bit more detail in another thread: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=51629&p=213428&hilit=kirk+rectus+femoris#p213428

Grandevauler and Milton, with all due respect, I think you're referring to a coaching tactic (heard directly from Launder), rather than optimal technique. There is a big difference. Young vaulters cannot be expected to have technique as perfect as SB or RL, but that is quite different than saying that "It is not possible to whip kick starting with a straight leg."

Stipke, I would even go so far as to say that training with a purposely bent trail leg on highbar or rings is a bad habit to get into, as that habit will transfer to the vaulter's technique on the pole whether he likes it or not. You should train for optimal technique on highbar and rings, and then the transfer of the action to the pole will be a simple matter of muscle memory (the vaulter won't even have to think about it).

I ONLY like the vaulter to experiment with a purposely bent trail leg (on highbar, rings, and/or the pole) in order to feel the power of a faster-moving trail leg. I have mentioned that here: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=51829&p=213589&hilit=kirk+bent+trail+leg#p213589, where I have also mentioned how to transition OUT OF this training tactic.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:47 pm

PoleVaultStipke wrote: @ charlie :
we do 2 step drills where we take a light pole(12' 110) and plant (walk) and PRESS not PUSH the BENT LEFT arm UP and to the LEFT and actually raise up on the toe of the take off foot!

Why push it to the left? I actually try to keep them behind the pole as long as possible.

Another good catch, Stipke! :yes:

There should be no cognizant action of pressing the bottom arm to the side.

Pressing off-center will cause the vaulter's trajectory to be off-center, which (in the extreme case) could cause the vaulter to miss the coaches box or miss the entire pit.

The fact that the vaulter might still be pressing up as the pole swings to the side does not mean that the vaulter must cognizantly press off-center.

Charlie: Shame on you! You should know better than this! :no:

On a slightly different topic, I personally don't think the vaulter needs to press up either! It's the top hand that bends the pole - not the bottom hand! :idea:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:16 pm

http://youtu.be/ygYgJr9MXjU this may lead to a bit of insight on what we are trying to acheive with this drill.

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:52 pm

grandevaulter wrote: http://youtu.be/ygYgJr9MXjU this may lead to a bit of insight on what we are trying to achieve with this drill.

This is a very vague vid of Launder demonstrating the start of a trail leg swing, when he was conducting his camp with Grandevaulter in MN. Milton may have been there too, and that's the basis of their comments.

I don't dispute the teaching opportunity afforded by the highbar. In fact, it's a very good apparatus for teaching how to swing. :yes:

As Launder says in this vid (I"m paraphrasing) "if he doesn't have any idea what to do here, how's he going to know what to do on the pole?".

But the vid is very short and sketchy.

What is your point, Grandevaulter? :confused:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

grandevaulter
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:29 pm

KirkB wrote:What is your point, Grandevaulter?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErixR0AQ0rY
Kirk, we can see the whip leg on RL and SB slightly flexed. This video is not as sketchy as the first but does not tell all. It is not always easy to catch every minute action or position in a drill or in a full jump. That being said, I'm heading in the right direction on "building a picture".

You may continue to pat our Belgium friend on the back, but he is more concerned about raising the bar and bragging about the twelve year olds personal bests. He should be more concerned about helping him correct his run, plant and take off and not worry about immediate height results.

das Pferd von hinten aufzäumen

Stiepke my friend, this is how you train a 12 year old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD9ARW1i7HI

If Charlie doesn't respond in a day or two, I'll try to explain his explanation.

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KirkB
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Re: talented kid

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:45 pm

grandevaulter wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AD9ARW1i7HI
This video is not as sketchy as the first but does not tell all.

You may continue to pat our Belgium friend on the back ...

Yes, that's a better vid. At least it shows the entire swinging action. But I still don't see your point. Or maybe you don't see my point.

If you re-read what I said about the rectus femoris muscles, then maybe you will understand how SB and RL can have such a vigorous downswing without hardly any bending of their trail leg knee. This is how SB and RL get such a powerful swing! And this is how young vaulters can practice on the highbar and (more easily) transfer the technique to the pole.

Yes, this is a different training method than Launders'. I like his method too (especially for beginners), but it can lead to bad habits on the pole. He knew a lot, but he didn't know everything, so you shouldn't take his coaching advice so dogmatically.

But really, my biggest opposition to your previous posts is simply that you stated that "It is not possible to whip kick starting with a straight leg.". This is simply not true, as proven by WR holders SB and RL.

If I'm missing your point, perhaps you can state it in simple English? :confused:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not taking sides. I like Launder's drills, and I think Stipke has some work cut out for him. But by catching what I believe (IMHO) are coaching errors of yours and Charlie's, he's proven that he's no dumb bunny (as our old friend Launder would say). So lighten up!

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: talented kid

Unread postby grandevaulter » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:22 pm

KirkB wrote:But by catching what I believe (IMHO) are coaching errors of yours and Charlie's, he's proven that he's no dumb bunny (as our old friend Launder would say). So lighten up!
He may not be a "Dumb Bunny", but Stipke's one year with this kid and Launder spending 5 months with the 12 year old is worlds apart. Some have praised Stipke, I don't see anything positive about how he has trained the boy. No apologies.

I'm pretty sure Charlie is talking about "left elbow position" into the plant and takeoff. It's possible that Canadian English and Southern Georgia English don't translate. I think Charlie got it right, his terminology is his own and he doesn't realize that others don't understand. :D

Some coaches are after immediate results and "win now". That is a coaching error. Stipke should start from the beginning with the kid using the Launder "Minimalist approach to teaching Pole Vaulters" Can he get the young horse back in the barn?

Kirk, you and Stipke may continue to critique my videos, I won't be offended, by doing so you both may learn something about working with young athletes.

Translation on the Deustch Idiom: Don't put the bridle on the rear of the horse.


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