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Weak sauce.

did earl tell you to remove the skip at the beginning your run, entirely?? or do you only do it for 1's, 2's and 3's???

Hey Brian, I took a look at these vids, then compared them to your 5.62 indoor vid and your 5.51 (18-1) to see if you're consistent or doing something different in your long run.

I didn't spend much time on this, and I'm not using any slo-mo tools on the takeoff (not sure exactly how well you're taking off) so please don't take this for gospel, but my initial reactions are:

1. In your current short run vaults, you're tuck/shooting quite a bit. It's (unfortunately) a two-phased vault, separated by your "kip" right at the tuck. Also under a tad, which sets up the rest of the vault to be "off". i.e. "C" is late, so too close to the pole by then and leaning back too much by then; little or no QUICK downswing; no whip; pulling the legs in (to keep the pole rolling forwards) too much, etc.

2. In your 5.62 indoor PR vid here ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T-7Zm8IGFs
... you're doing the same thing, but not quite as bad. You're vaulting WAY below your potential on this jump. Fixing up just a few things on the takeoff (which I couldn't see very clearly), DOWNswing, and Whip will do wonders for your UPswing thru to a CONTINUOUS CHAIN extension. That should put you into the mid-nineteens! Seriously!

3. In your 5.51 (18-1) freshman redshirt vid here ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfThtIm46uI
... I see that your technique has been quite consistent (unfortunately) since back then. How many years ago was that?

I needed to compare your short to your long run, to understand what you NORMALLY do, compared to what you're doing now, during this off-season. My conclusion is that your short runs are perpetuating your bad tuck/shoot habit. Forgive me if that's your intent, but I think you should be striving for much more of a continuous chain - from the takeoff right on thru to the extension (no tuck/kip).

There's SOME improvement in your 5.62. It's a BIT more of a continous flow, but still too much tuck. You're kipping out of your tuck, rather than shooting out of it like most tuck/shooters. Walker does this too, but that doesn't mean it's good - even tho he's done 6.04 that way. Before I go much further, I guess I need clarification from you on your INTENT. What are you TRYING to do there? Continuous flow, or tuck/kip?

I know you already know all the continuous chain theory, so maybe you're asking for hints on how to get out of this bad habit?

The answer, I think, lies in the types of highbar and ring drills that I've been talking to 6P and PP about (mostly on 6P's training blog thread). With all due respect, your technique might improve by "getting back to basics" and working on that smooth, continuous motion.

(a) get it down pat on the rings and highbar
(b) get it down pat on the short run
(c) apply it to your long run vault

That's the proper progression!

A month ago, I thought it was good that you were doing lots of short runs. But now that I see how much you're tucking, I'm worried about you imprinting your bad habits by these short runs.

Having said that, you know that the heights you're clearing on these short runs are INCREDIBLE, so think about how much higher you can go with a CONTINOUS MOTION vault, starting with a VERY QUICK DOWNSWING to the WHIP. You'll find that that's really all you need to shoot smoothly into an extension - bypassing the TUCK entirely!

Kirk

First reaction: Wow, that's probably the widest grip I have ever seen.....
Naturally, from that position, your top hand is never (as far as I can see) in a favorable position. Everything the top hand does happens behind your right shoulder (in fact, behind your body). I would suggest a narrower grip. The top hand should be closer to your hip when running, and the drop should be initiated a little further out. The top hand should be moved from the position just behind (not 8 inches behind) your hip, to being just ahead of your shoulder when your top hand is at shoulder height. There's a slight tendency to block with the lower arm (early in the jump) coming from your wide grip.

Just my first impression....

Check Isi's plant drills on BtB2.

In regards to the negative aspects of a wide grip:
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=15562&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=wide+grip

SlickVT wrote:Weak sauce.

you are correct sir. haha.

joebro391 wrote:did earl tell you to remove the skip at the beginning your run, entirely?? or do you only do it for 1's, 2's and 3's???

about 3 weeks ago earl forced me to change the start of my run. we eliminated the skip to improve consistency

response to KirkB, too long to quote whole thing.

that video was from 2005
The top end of my vault is suffering a bit right now as all the focus has been on the bottem. I have spent a long time swinging out of a hammered take off position. now im trying to hit the pole first, and the timing of the whip is lost on me. Once i feel ive "mastered" this new take off, then the focus will return to the swing. i know its all one phase but... gotta do the first part first. But thanks for the input.. i def agree with you. I actually have started working with a gymnastics instructor at a local club here. should pay off when the time is right

golfdane wrote:First reaction: Wow, that's probably the widest grip I have ever seen.....
Naturally, from that position, your top hand is never (as far as I can see) in a favorable position. Everything the top hand does happens behind your right shoulder (in fact, behind your body). I would suggest a narrower grip. The top hand should be closer to your hip when running, and the drop should be initiated a little further out. The top hand should be moved from the position just behind (not 8 inches behind) your hip, to being just ahead of your shoulder when your top hand is at shoulder height. There's a slight tendency to block with the lower arm (early in the jump) coming from your wide grip.

Just my first impression....

Check Isi's plant drills on BtB2.

this grip width is 27inches right now. which actually still isn't that wide for someone whos 6'5. Petrov said grip width should be aorund 1/3 body length. so 77 inches divided by 3 is just under 26. so really im not that far off. and actually ive spent most of the year jumping at 25" wide. One of my goals however i to get my grip height up into respectable numbers for someone whos as fast and tall as I am. Ive had some issues in the past with confidence as ive raised grip, so what my current process has been is to let myself hold a little wider for now as Im pushing grip, to help the pole "feel lighter" in my hands. after im comfortable i will slowly narrow the grip back down. may seem silly but, its way better than wasting time running through, which i have virtually eliminated this year. At this same time last year my highest grip from 5 was 15'3 and i was running through 6-8 times per workout. This year in my second day from 5 i held 15'7 and only had 1 runthrough all day (and that was actually with a lower grip because my mid was WAY out, couldn't get to the box). Plus its not the widest ever, jeff hartwig has about the same width and hes shorter.. and derek is much wider. and most of the frenches too, galfion, lavenielle (spelling?). Theres a bunch of guys that grip wide.

VTechVaulter wrote: The top end of my vault is suffering a bit right now as all the focus has been on the bottom. I have spent a long time swinging out of a hammered take off position. now I'm trying to hit the pole first, and the timing of the whip is lost on me. Once i feel ive "mastered" this new take off, then the focus will return to the swing. i know its all one phase but... gotta do the first part first. But thanks for the input.. i def agree with you. I actually have started working with a gymnastics instructor at a local club here. should pay off when the time is right

Yes, I agree that you need to fix the takeoff before you fix the swing.

Could you please confirm that you're trying to follow the Petrov model? I don't know much about Earl Bell, his technique, or his coaching style, so I really don't know how close you're trying to be to Bubka/Petrov. If you and your coach are trying to do something different than classic Petrov, that's OK - I'm not going to rant. I'm a firm believer in your personal coach being the best one to assess your training and technique path. I'll just back off, or make alternate suggestions that complement (rather than contradict) what you and your coach are striving to do.

Assuming you're striving for a free takeoff, your problem starts BEFORE the takeoff. You're under - you know that. You can't fix your takeoff until you take off out a bit more. Then fix takeoff, then fix swing, then fix extension, in that order. (Sorry to state the obvious. I'm not really saying this for your sake, but rather for younger vaulters that will be reading this.)

But I'm still worried that in the meantime, you're imprinting an improper swing into your short runs. When you say "all the focus has been on the bottom", you're referring to takeoff. But I actually consider the DOWNswing to be part of the "bottom" too. Once you Whip (and pass the chord), then I consider the rest of the vault to be the "top half". This is just semantics, nothing more.

But here's an idea ... Maybe you can improve your downswing at the same time as your takeoff in this way ... When trying to improve your takeoff, think about how long, stretched, extended you want to (need to) get into, for good starting posture for the swing. That's the ending point of your target (optimal) takeoff, and the starting point of your target (optimal) swing.

I know you won't make the same mistake I made, where I PAUSED in the "C" (Split) position.

But in striving for a good, strong, COMPLETELY STRETCHED takeoff, it might help to know WHY you want your body to do that. The reason, of course, is that it sets up the proper body posture for a very quick, strong swing!

This gets back to the comment you made on my BB thread about "the mind is willing, but the body isn't cooperating". You need to connect the dots, so that your mind and body work together ... on each subsequent vault part ... harmoniously. I know you were half-joking when you said that, but jokes often have a hint of truth to them (which is what makes them funny), and that's the "half" that I'm talking about here.

VTechVaulter wrote:... this grip width is 27inches right now. which actually still isn't that wide for someone who's 6'5. Petrov said grip width should be around 1/3 body length. ... Plus its not the widest ever, jeff hartwig has about the same width and hes shorter.. and derek is much wider. and most of the frenches too, galfion, lavenielle (spelling?). Theres a bunch of guys that grip wide.

I wouldn't take Petrov's estimate as gospel here. It's a very rough approximation. In fact, I suggest that your grip width should be more proportional to your shoulder width than your height. That's another approximation, but maybe a better one.

Here's why ...

There's 4 main factors (that I can think of - off the cuff) that should be considered when choosing a grip width.

1. What's the most natural grip for carrying the pole down the runway?
2. What's optimal for a good, high plant?
3. What's most natural for the initial swing phase (after takeoff, when the pole is bending forwards)?
4. What's most natural for the later swing phase (once you pass the chord, and start your inversion - when the pole bend twists to the side)?

Follow this process ...
(a) Think about these 4 factors, and pick a width that you think is optimal for each. They won't all be the same width, of course.
(b) Rank the 4 factors in order of importance.
(c) Think about how you can compromise any of the 4 that are well outside the range of the other 2-3.
(d) "Test drive" the remaining widths, and see how they feel - keeping all 4 factors in mind.
(e) Narrow your choices down to an even smaller range.
(f) Finally, arrive at an optimal grip width.

This process a-f often takes several weeks, months, or even years.

For #4, shoulder width is quite optimal. For #3, optimal is fairly close to shoulder width too. For #2, you could even say (arguably) that something less than shoulder width is optimal. For #1, the wider the grip (within a limit), the easier the carry.

My grip width was 22", which was about my shoulder width (I was 6-0). This grip worked well for me for factors #2-4, but not for factor #1. I solved that problem with a high pole carry, which allowed a more narrow grip. Your exact mileage will vary.

Today, poles are lighter, so pole weight during the run (and plant) isn't as critical, but if you're gripping wider just for a better pole carry, and that wide grip is sub-optimal for factors #2-4, then that might just be sufficient justification to go to a higher carry with a narrower grip.

Kirk

hey just wanted to throw in my 2 cents on what i saw. first i want to ask what you have been striving for in your "new" takeoff? and what i see in the take off anyways is just a slight lean backwards after the plant. you are creating a very high bend on the pole which tells me you are taking off up into the pole very well. but is seams as though your chest drops back just a little bit. maybe i am just trying to see something in the take off but it just seams like you may be just a little under or something. are you applying a lot of pressure on the pole with that left arm when you are jumping? because that can also have the effect of pushing your chest back a little. It just seams like to me there is a little to much tension in the left arm to let the chest drive through to its full potential and create a very powerful whip from the trail leg. also after looking at the videos a couple more times it seams that you are very tense and "stiff" at the takeoff and through the swing phase. Not to say that you have a "rigid" body but rather you don't really open up at the plant. opening up and leffing your chest drive better will deffinetly improve your swing and timing up the poles to let you achieve MUCH higher heights. please let me know what you think and know that i am just letting you know what i see in these jumps.

okay so heres what i will say about coach bell and the petrov model. He doesn't sit and say, well we want to do this like petrov or this like bubka. But, his goals when i sit and think about them compare nearly identical. he wants you to be moving up before the pole strikes (not pre jump but free). He wants the chest to lead as far as possible. And wants a swing that leads into a continuous tight motion up the pole.

My personal focus as of late is on trying to get my chest further in. as vaulter870 pointed out theres still a slight lean back, however if you look at video from last year... there is a BIG lean back. we are trying to get my step farther out, and be chest forward driving into the take off, rather than leaning back and pre-emptively swinging. those have been my focus

VTechVaulter][quote="golfdane wrote:First reaction: Wow, that's probably the widest grip I have ever seen.....
Naturally, from that position, your top hand is never (as far as I can see) in a favorable position. Everything the top hand does happens behind your right shoulder (in fact, behind your body). I would suggest a narrower grip. The top hand should be closer to your hip when running, and the drop should be initiated a little further out. The top hand should be moved from the position just behind (not 8 inches behind) your hip, to being just ahead of your shoulder when your top hand is at shoulder height. There's a slight tendency to block with the lower arm (early in the jump) coming from your wide grip.

Just my first impression....

Check Isi's plant drills on BtB2.

this grip width is 27inches right now. which actually still isn't that wide for someone whos 6'5. Petrov said grip width should be aorund 1/3 body length. so 77 inches divided by 3 is just under 26. so really im not that far off. and actually ive spent most of the year jumping at 25" wide. One of my goals however i to get my grip height up into respectable numbers for someone whos as fast and tall as I am. Ive had some issues in the past with confidence as ive raised grip, so what my current process has been is to let myself hold a little wider for now as Im pushing grip, to help the pole "feel lighter" in my hands. after im comfortable i will slowly narrow the grip back down. may seem silly but, its way better than wasting time running through, which i have virtually eliminated this year. At this same time last year my highest grip from 5 was 15'3 and i was running through 6-8 times per workout. This year in my second day from 5 i held 15'7 and only had 1 runthrough all day (and that was actually with a lower grip because my mid was WAY out, couldn't get to the box). Plus its not the widest ever, jeff hartwig has about the same width and hes shorter.. and derek is much wider. and most of the frenches too, galfion, lavenielle (spelling?). Theres a bunch of guys that grip wide.[/quote]

According to BtB2, page 213, is 60-70 cm common among male elite vaulters, measured thumb to thumb (not inside measurement). Your grip LOOKS wider, but the quality of youtube makes it hard to see. I'll take your word for it. My observation was based on perception of gripwidth compared to your frame, but appearently I'm wrong. Still think you need to work on the plant, so that your top hand isn't behind the shoulders during the plant.

those are some excelent goals brian and i wish you the best of luck working on them i to am struggling with the exact same things that you are as far as working the plant, take-off, and swing to death. only thing i can say is that once you start to get the chest drive swinging comes alot easier. i just wish i was as tall as you that would make things much easier for jumping high