Speed or Strength?

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
KYLE ELLIS
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Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:15 pm

im not a an expert on physics but i thought once your foot leaves contact with the ground you cant create any more energy? you can just conserve it by having good technique, the better the technique the more energy conserved from the run and plant.... and i dont believe any vaulters actually create more energy once the pole starts uncoiling, from experience usually if you do everything right before then the top end feels easy. most people who i see pull like crazy at the top of the vault usually something goes wrong or already went wrong.
On a whole new level 6-20-09

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Unread postby jumpbackin » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:46 pm

KYLE ELLIS wrote:im not a an expert on physics but i thought once your foot leaves contact with the ground you cant create any more energy? you can just conserve it by having good technique, the better the technique the more energy conserved from the run and plant.... and i dont believe any vaulters actually create more energy once the pole starts uncoiling, from experience usually if you do everything right before then the top end feels easy. most people who i see pull like crazy at the top of the vault usually something goes wrong or already went wrong.


I better not think too much on this. By brain will get whiplashed.

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Unread postby altius » Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:51 pm

In taking me to task jumpbackin stated "I don't think anyone in this forum, make that the world, believes you can't add more energy to the pole after you leave the ground."

In almost the next post we read
'im not a an expert on physics but i thought once your foot leaves contact with the ground you cant create any more energy? you can just conserve it by having good technique, the better the technique the more energy conserved from the run and plant.... and i dont believe any vaulters actually create more energy once the pole starts uncoiling, from experience usually if you do everything right before then the top end feels easy. most people who i see pull like crazy at the top of the vault usually something goes wrong or already went wrong.'

What were you saying JBI? I dont read the posts?? If thats the case it looks as though I am not the only one, because I thought PC students post was on the mark - but clearly some folk havent read it or understood it - the very point i made which caused you to dump on me..
;) waddever.
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Unread postby souleman » Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:43 pm

Nice to have you back Alan. Trouble is with this topic and many others in the technique forum, we always discuss the "ultimate". As I see it there are maybe only 1 to 2 percent of all the vaulters in the world that can make the next step to the "ultimate" or what we call the 6.40 model. Where strength or speed actually would make a differemce in their own results. What I would love to see us address is for maybe the bottom percentage of vaulters that need to accomplish 5 or 6 more steps to reach the point where speed or strength could make a difference. You take a guy like Master who 4 years ago probably didn't have the technique that he does today. I'm sure that the day he started his come back at 56, he didn't grab a pole and jump the 6.40 technical model that first day. And yet youlook at any of his videos from this past year and he's pretty dead on to the model and it shows. He's theworld record holder in his class. Back to this topic for a minute. We have a lot of high school age vaulters who are either strong or they are fast. The first time they saw a pole in their whole life was the first day of track practice their 7th grade or freshman year. These kids are going to passively participate in the vault for the next 4 years and most will never grab a pole again. In the meantime, during those years they will be a part of the team and have a ball. Most will never master the 6.40 model . Where I would like to see the topic go is, how do we take advantage of what the vaulter has (speed or strength) and coach them to be the best they can be in the short time they have to participate? What we are often too guilty of is (I'm going to use a music analogy) we teach our "performers" how to play chop sticks on the piano. Once they get that, we hand them the sheet music for Rhapsody in Blue and tell them basically, "don't talk to us until you can play this". Later.....Mike

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Unread postby altius » Fri Sep 01, 2006 2:53 am

Mike - Thanks for the welcome - but it seems like we might be tracking down the same path as before!!

All I am trying to communicate is that once you accept that it IS possible to add energy AFTER you leave the ground, then you can begin to see how it can be done - even by young vaulters like the kids shown in BTB - all ordinary kids by the way - Lauren Eley especially. Just for interest note that Jana Tancosic could do only one pull up at the time she jumped 3.85 while Jamie Scroop could not do a single when she jumped 3.80.

if one does NOT accept the proposition that you can put energy into the pole after take off you dont even look to see how it could/can be done and you are left with the Cannon model - which apart from anything else takes kids into danger.

Of course beginners cant jump like Bubka - ie the 6.40 model - but if the coach understands that model they CAN see how to help their athletes jump higher by helping them one or more of the elements of that model.. The whip kick of the trail leg is but one simple way to do this - and is pretty easy for kids to learn.

Glad to see you mentioned Master - wonder where he got his ideas from??? ;)
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:21 am

Thank you Alan for pointing out that you don't have to be world class to use the 6.40 model. Souleman athletes will learn exactly what they are taught. If you teach someone to tuck and shoot that is what they will do. No one model is easy but many are WRONG and one is correct. Why do people insist that young or novice athletes can't learn the 6.40/Petrov model. Alan has done all the work all you have to do is read his book and watch his video and implement the technique. I want to thank Alan for his hard work, he has made my job easier not harder. Never teach someone or allow them to do something wrong simply teach them the correct way. If you have a high school kid teach them exactly how Alan has laid it out if you allow them to pole vault any way they want your not coaching and if you are coaching another technique suck it up and change. This is why no one is jumping higher or as high as Bubka, bad habits don't just go away they get more obvious at the next level if the next level ever comes. Anyone who is not using the 6.40/Petrov model could jump higher using it.

Alan sorry I missed you in South Carolina I still owe you bottle of red. My athletes were very excited after the camp.

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altius
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Unread postby altius » Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:13 am

I didnt want to bring it up but i did wonder what happened to that bottle of red - coming from your sisters vinyard in the Napa valley???

Had a ball in Columbia - that Rusty Shealy is a good man!! Great company as well - pity about baggett tho. waddever. :yes:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Unread postby gtc » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:51 pm

You could just send him a case of A&W Root Beer ;)
Glad you and Jen got back safe.

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Unread postby vaultman18 » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:56 pm

We had about 10 cases leftover from the wedding I was just too darn tired to drive to Columbia. When you come back to the states I will make good on my offer.

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Unread postby souleman » Fri Sep 01, 2006 10:02 pm

As you know Altius, when I practice out in the backyard there are two things that are sitting on my deck for reference. One is my DJ step chart and the other is my BTB. In my first post I failed to mention most all questions are answered in BTB that we ask here. As to this topic and my suggestion above, let me interject this in regards to speed. I used to have a saying for my girls when they would try to run too fast. I'd tell them "run strong, not long". Run too fast you ask? How can that be? When one is trying to run too fast, I equate that with stretching to reach the spot they are comfortable taking off at. I do it all the time when I add steps to get more speed so I can grip higher. I subconsciously will end up with my plant foot taking off where I normally do with a lower grip. Therefore I take off under because I'm running too long. What I want is not a fast 40 meter time, I want a "quick" and strong 60 to 90 foot run. I want good posture, I want "springy or high" knees and the quickest rep of those steps that the vaulter can do and be under control. I bet those good vaulters who are/were considered slow, ran or run this way. With this approach to "speed" even a modest performer can exell. With a good run and good (at the right spot) take off so much can be done to increase heights cleared. At that point it becomes a matter of tweaking technique to get the vaulter jumping their best. Back to Master, He runs quick, not lightening fast, but strong. He also (maybe I'm wrong here) can't bench a gazillion pounds although his muscular make up is fine tuned. But he takes that runway quickness and strong run and attaches it to the 6:40 model as he has learned for himself and his application and ability and he jumps really high for a member of the Vaultin' Geezers. So strength or Speed. What's more important? Neither! Technique is I would say. Later...........Mike

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Unread postby master » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:09 pm

Hi guys. I don't want to, nor do I deserve to be the subject of or example in the discussion. But, for the record, I liked what I read about the 6.40 model and when I had the opportunity to learn about it by attending a vault camp taught primarily by Alan Launder and Jeremy Bailey, I jumped at the chance. (no pun intended, although I think it is a pretty good one ;) ) So what I learned has formed the foundation of what I train for and try to achieve. I have plenty that can be improved, and thanks to embracing a particular style, I know what I am trying to achieve. Now, if only I could get my body to do what my mind knows it should do. :crying: So I keep trying and if my body stays together I will continue to do so.

I hope to keep learning from all who post, so please keep it up. For those newer vaulters that read the information here, a suggestion. Try to understand the vault and realize that it is complicated. However as you gain information, certain things will make more sense than others and you will eventually wrap your mind around what you want to train yourself to do, or as a coach, what you want to teach the people you coach to do. Understanding the vault is a first step. Simplifying it into manageable concepts is very helpful and might avoid the inevitable frustration that sometimes overcomes a vaulter. Any single or even several of the simple concepts is not sufficient to jump well. Only when all the needed skills are put together in a fluid continuum does a good vault ensue.

Enjoy the journey as well as the destination. Be a learner, a seeker and a vaulter. Share your passion with someone to keep the movement going. Thanks to all who have shared their knowledge with me and helped me achieve some of my goals. I hope I can pass on what I have learned.

- master

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waddever?

Unread postby baggettpv » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:58 pm

Hey Al, what happened to me for all the pity? I am fine except for a sore butt from all the meeting the first week of school....

rick


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