How/When to pull when inverted

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
Lilmicmike
PV Dweeb
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:25 am
Expertise: college freshmen
Lifetime Best: 17'2"
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Sam Kendricks

How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby Lilmicmike » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:47 pm

Hello everyone, My name is Drew McMichael. I am a current college vaulter, jumped 17'2" in highschool, but am having some trouble right now. I am with an amazing coach right now and he is telling me great things. My vault has improved Greatly in a small amount of time. Currently we are struggling with the top end. Ive never really been taught what to do up top. I jumped 17feet by just flagging off my pole. Right now I am getting a good take off, decent long trail leg to intiate the swing but I dont seem the keep the pressure in my shoulder to get a reverse invert. My feet fall out cause I point my toes and the top just dies off. Ive been told to pull once im into position but cant seem to time it up. I will post video below of our most recent 4 and 5 left practice. Im on a 180 15' 15.8 flex. its rather soft in these videos. I am asking for any tips or ques to help my top end. My Coach is telling me right now to keep the right hand close to the body as possible, not to throw my head back so soon, see my feet hit my hand and get into position, flex my toes to point my heels and not my toes, and pull up my body. Like I said he is a brilliant pole vault coach but I think the more eyes that see the vault, someone can pick something that works best for me. Criticize the Jumps as MUCH as possible.
Thank You
-Drew
https://youtu.be/6zn4He-rI9c
https://youtu.be/kbqEV9p0_Mw
Last edited by Lilmicmike on Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

monteo
PV Dweeb
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed May 13, 2015 6:42 am
Expertise: High School, Club, College Coach
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Bubka
Location: Richmond, KY

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby monteo » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:56 am

The link comes up and says the video is private, therefore no way to play it

Lilmicmike
PV Dweeb
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:25 am
Expertise: college freshmen
Lifetime Best: 17'2"
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Sam Kendricks

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby Lilmicmike » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:15 am

Thank you for the heads up. Link should be all good now.

User avatar
KirkB
PV Maniac
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:47 pm

Lilmicmike wrote: Currently we are struggling with the top end. I've never really been taught what to do up top.

Drew, you mention what you're doing "right", but not what you're doing "wrong". Here's my list (I won't mention anything before your takeoff, but there's issues there too):

1. You're taking off too far under. You can see that your pole is bending before you take off. You should strive for a "free takeoff" (the Petrov Model).

2. Your drive thru your chest is initially OK (as best as you could expect with an "under" takeoff), but it's far from optimal, because your body posture (the angle of attack) is almost leaning back. Instead, you need to have a slight forwards lean on takeoff. This is impossible with an under takeoff.

3. As I said, your initial drive thru your chest is good, but then something very weird happens, which you must be doing cognizantly. Your bottom arm suddenly goes straight. You are pushing with your bottom arm to straighten it. Don't do that! It's killing your swing. Your trail leg has nowhere to swing to.

4. The top of your vault is a product of the faults that I just mentioned re the bottom of your vault. I don't know why you think that you just need to learn what to do "up top". Focus on improving the bottom of your vault, and the top will take care of itself. Take a look at Bubka's vaults, and you'll see that it's all in the bottom half. More recently, take a look at Thiago Braz da Silva's vaults, and you'll see a similar technique (they had the same coach - Vitaly Petrov).

5. Your entire swing should be one smooth motion. But in your case, it's very jerky. Watch how your trail leg moves in a jerky motion, then compare it to how Bubka's trail leg moves. It looks like you haven't done much highbar work. Get on a highbar and learn to swing. And learn to do hip-circle-to-handstands (and other drills). Done right (and powerfully), you will need to hang onto the bar for dear life, else you'll fly straight up above the bar (if you were to release your hands). You should have that same feeling on the pole - just like Bubka. And just like da Silva. This is something you need to learn on the highbar - you cannot expect it to just happen on the pole.

6. I don't know why you think that how you point your toes (or not) has much to do with your technique. There's no style points awarded in PV, but I would either point them, or not even worry about how they're being pointed. That's a red herring - hardly worth discussing. Once you perfect everything in the bottom half of your vault, we can discuss how to point your toes. It's just not important right now.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

Lilmicmike
PV Dweeb
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:25 am
Expertise: college freshmen
Lifetime Best: 17'2"
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Sam Kendricks

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby Lilmicmike » Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:15 pm

KirkB wrote:Drew, you mention what you're doing "right", but not what you're doing "wrong". Here's my list (I won't mention anything before your takeoff, but there's issues there too):

1. You're taking off too far under. You can see that your pole is bending before you take off. You should strive for a "free takeoff" (the Petrov Model).

2. Your drive thru your chest is initially OK (as best as you could expect with an "under" takeoff), but it's far from optimal, because your body posture (the angle of attack) is almost leaning back. Instead, you need to have a slight forwards lean on takeoff. This is impossible with an under takeoff.

3. As I said, your initial drive thru your chest is good, but then something very weird happens, which you must be doing cognizantly. Your bottom arm suddenly goes straight. You are pushing with your bottom arm to straighten it. Don't do that! It's killing your swing. Your trail leg has nowhere to swing to.

4. The top of your vault is a product of the faults that I just mentioned re the bottom of your vault. I don't know why you think that you just need to learn what to do "up top". Focus on improving the bottom of your vault, and the top will take care of itself. Take a look at Bubka's vaults, and you'll see that it's all in the bottom half. More recently, take a look at Thiago Braz da Silva's vaults, and you'll see a similar technique (they had the same coach - Vitaly Petrov).

5. Your entire swing should be one smooth motion. But in your case, it's very jerky. Watch how your trail leg moves in a jerky motion, then compare it to how Bubka's trail leg moves. It looks like you haven't done much highbar work. Get on a highbar and learn to swing. And learn to do hip-circle-to-handstands (and other drills). Done right (and powerfully), you will need to hang onto the bar for dear life, else you'll fly straight up above the bar (if you were to release your hands). You should have that same feeling on the pole - just like Bubka. And just like da Silva. This is something you need to learn on the highbar - you cannot expect it to just happen on the pole.

6. I don't know why you think that how you point your toes (or not) has much to do with your technique. There's no style points awarded in PV, but I would either point them, or not even worry about how they're being pointed. That's a red herring - hardly worth discussing. Once you perfect everything in the bottom half of your vault, we can discuss how to point your toes. It's just not important right now.

Kirk


Kirk I really appreciate the response and advice given.
I agree with your first point to an extent. Yes I am roughly 2 to 4 inches under. I am not a firm believer in the Free Takeoff concept. What I have seen and felt is that when you time your hands and your feet to leave the ground and extend at the same time you get your best results. We very well could be talking about the same thing but when I hear free takeoff I assume you want the vaulter to be completely off the ground before the pole makes contact with the box. I am working on attacking at take off and not striding out.
Your third point is about my straightening of my left/bottom arm. I have been taught to move the pole with my lats and shoulders. Good examples are your favorite vaulter Shawn Barber, Jake Blankenship, and Brad Walker. I am not saying what you are saying is wrong and I am right. There is not one model that is perfect for the vault. That is what makes the vault so great is everyone is different with varying styles and attributes.
The fourth point you make seems a little opinionated. I did not say or imply my vault was perfect or that I only need to get a top end. I understand that the vault is a series of events and A affects B and B affects C. So far in my vaulting carreer I have only worked runway and takeoff with some recent swing work. I am just on here asking for some help. I appreciate you talking about the swing and highbar work. I have done my fair share of highbar work but clearly it needs improvement.
The toes was simply just a que that Ive been told. When I tend to flex my toes at the bar, my legs follow and I fall out of the cylinder of the pole. That is all I meant by it. Im not saying it is a technique issue, just wanted to let everyone know what my thoughts were as to why I fall off my pole.
Once again Kirk, thank you for your reply and critique. Just remember there is more than one way to vault.

User avatar
KirkB
PV Maniac
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:24 pm

Drew, let me remind you that you did say:
Lilmicmike wrote: Criticize the Jumps as MUCH as possible.

But I get the sense that you're not wanting to accept my criticism. This is a little contradictory, don't you think?

Strangely enough, #4 was what I consider my most important point, yet you consider it "opinionated". I'm very sincere about this point, and you should study both Bubka and da Silva's technique (there's lots of youtube vids to review), and think about why they hardly have to do *anything* at the top of their vault. Yet they *fly* off the pole.

My definition of a "free takeoff" is not quite what you think. There's no such thing as a perfect takeoff, so what I like to see is to hit your "ideal takeoff" point plus or minus a couple inches. That gives you some tolerance to play with, which means you can be under by a couple inches, or your can be "out" by a couple inches, and you'll still have a free takeoff.

But in your takeoff, you're under by closer to a foot than a couple inches. I can't be sure how many inches you're under (a foot is just a guess), but you're under so much that I can tell that it's nowhere close to being a free takeoff. Another way *you* can tell if it's free or not is to feel yourself jumping into the pole (or not). Most likely, you feel the pole jerking you off the ground (rather than you having time to jump into it).

I note that you said:
Lilmicmike wrote: I am working on attacking at take off and not striding out.

This is good, but it's not apparent in you vids, so you have to keep working on this.

Lilmicmike wrote: I have done my fair share of highbar work but clearly it needs improvement.

How much is "my fair share"? However much you've done, you need to do more. At least 3 times per week. Especially if you're a 17-foot vaulter wanting to become an 18-foot (or 19-foot) vaulter.

Here's a challenge for you: Can you do the pull-to-a-handstand drill? You do it by standing under the highbar; jump up and grab it; then pulling yourself into a handstand. I'll bet you can't. But if you ever want to become an 19-foot vaulter, this is one drill that will help you do that. (Personally, I could *almost* do this drill - but not quite. But I kept working at it. It's not easy. And the hip-circle-shoot-to-a-handstand is a drill that will help you to do the pull-to-a-handstand drill.)

Re to push or not to push with your lower arm ...

I agree that Shawn Barber pushes. Lavillenie does too. So does Kendricks. I disagree that Brad Walker pushed (much). And I agree with the fact that there's more than one "proper" technique. However, the one thing that I'm certain of is that Barber, Lavillenie, Kendricks, and Walker have all learned how to do a "free takeoff", and have all learned how to *not* block their swing by any bottom arm push. Comparing their technique to yours, you *are* blocking with your bottom arm, which is killing your swing.

With all elite vaulters - the ones I listed above plus Bubka and da Silva (the Petrov Model vaulters), they swing in a continuous motion from trail leg down-and-back to trail leg extending straight up and over the bar. There is no hesitations; it's one continuous motion.

Until you can do that, I wouldn't be too quick to defend things that aren't working for you; and to ignore advice that will improve your swing.

Kirk

p.s. I'll give you some hints about pointing your toes in another post - at another time. It's not very important right now.
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

Lilmicmike
PV Dweeb
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:25 am
Expertise: college freshmen
Lifetime Best: 17'2"
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Sam Kendricks

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby Lilmicmike » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:03 pm

Kirk, do not let my questioning of your theroy be taken as ignoring your advice and criticism. I asked to be criticized and that is what you are doing. Take a look at this most recent jump from this week. Would this qualify as a free takeoff?

https://youtu.be/c6IjHmo15hw

User avatar
KirkB
PV Maniac
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:24 pm

Thanks, Drew.

Lilmicmike wrote:Take a look at this most recent jump from this week. Would this qualify as a free takeoff?

I think your latest 5-step vid is *better* than before, but still not quite a free takeoff. Why? When your takeoff foot is flat on the runway, the pole is unbent. That's good. But one frame (or so) later, when your heel is off the runway but the ball of your foot is still down, the pole begins to bend. So technically not a free takeoff.

However, I do see a better forward lean on takeoff in this vid, and I think this has helped you to improve your swing. Did it feel better to you?

Of course, Rome wasn't built in a day, and to improve your entire takeoff and swing, it will take many, many more training days. Hopefully, you'll be ready to go, early in the indoor season.

Keep up the good work!

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

Lilmicmike
PV Dweeb
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:25 am
Expertise: college freshmen
Lifetime Best: 17'2"
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Sam Kendricks

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby Lilmicmike » Sun Nov 06, 2016 10:41 pm

Kirk, Yes and No to if it felt better. It was a head wind and dead legs kind of a day. I was not bringing in as much speed and power as I usually do, but the plant felt higher and more chest drive. I have always been a foot under type of vaulter so these recent jumps have been consistenly on or a tad under. Not completely free like you say but it is getting there. Do you have any video of the highbar swing to hand stand? I have an idea but dont know exactly what you are meaning. Thank you.
-Drew

User avatar
KirkB
PV Maniac
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Nov 07, 2016 12:53 am

Lilmicmike wrote: Do you have any video of the highbar swing to hand stand? I have an idea but dont know exactly what you are meaning.

Here's a link to a discussion of a good vid: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17987, but the link is dead.

Chris Taminga was an elite Dutch vaulter until maybe 10 years ago (5.76m in 1998).

I'll search for other vids (later), but they won't be as good as how Taminga did this drill.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

User avatar
KirkB
PV Maniac
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:24 am

Here's the hip-circle-to-handstand drill. It's only 3 secs long: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLo8-gmBZMs :)

This free hip vid is 8 minutes long. Shows progressions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOeqKA_Wess

I couldn't find any "hang to a handstand" vids.

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

Lilmicmike
PV Dweeb
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:25 am
Expertise: college freshmen
Lifetime Best: 17'2"
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Sam Kendricks

Re: How/When to pull when inverted

Unread postby Lilmicmike » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:06 pm

I've done similar exercises to this. I cant get my arms as locked out as he does but I can get up and cleanly around the bar with no touch. Is this what you are refering to when you mention the pull to handstand. I understand he has a large swing and movement before the pull up but this is the only thing I can find that is not a gymnastics Gaint.
-Drew
https://youtu.be/jDuMbXYyijg


Return to “Pole Vault - Advanced Technique”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest