Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

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Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby PVstudent » Sat Nov 21, 2015 10:53 am

I have prepared a video to provide a relatively objective base from which to discuss the state of development of Renaud Lavillenie’s Pole Vault Technique during the 2015 Indoor and Outdoor Pole Vault competition season.

The technique discussion video has been allocated an identification frame number in the lower right of each frame to enable precise referencing of the evidence discussants may want readers to view.

Considered and repeated critical reviewing of the video material (a representative sampling of Renaud Lavillenie’s performances in competition in 2015) indicates to me that:

1. Lavillenie’s “Round arm plant action” and consequent inclination downward of his left shoulder due to trunk flexion to the left side is a primary causative agent of his lead leg slight lowering (“drop” or “hitch”) clearly observed in some vaults. This results from a “plant completion technical error”. Evidence presented shows that the effects emanate from Renaud’s top arm placement being directed too much to the left side lateral to the vertical mid-line of the head on plant completion.
In 2015 Renaud’s torso is shown to be more “square on” to the line of forward progression at and immediately after completion of the pole plant. His shoulders are more often level or show less frequently downward tilting to his left. The horizontally level shoulder transverse axis and directly forward facing frontal torso at the instant the pole tip impact with the rear wall of the planting box combined with improved timing of the plant completion has on many occasions attenuated and, in some cases, eliminated the lead leg dropping action. Lead leg drop, when it occurs, in Lavillenie’s case in 2015 is interpreted by me to be a reactive response to the plant completion error!

2. The claim that Renaud uses his lower arm to push against the pole to “hold his COM lower and to simultaneously retard its rise rate” is evaluated and tested by plotting the curvilinear pathway of Renaud’s Centre of Mass (COM). The results show the claim to be highly questionable.

Evidence presented also shows the inversion achieved by means of the “tuck” technique employed by this vaulter uses a lower arm partial grip release accompanied by a simultaneous elbow extension resulting in an angular acceleration of both partially flexed legs about the transverse axis through the hips. The angular acceleration produced by the vaulter’s action effort, timed in phase with the pole deflection rate, reduces the moment of inertia about the top grip on the pole. This action mechanism when activated and timed correctly allows the vaulter’s COM to continue to translate in the forward upward direction at an almost constant rate from take-off until maximum pole bend deflection occurs.

3. The “mechanism” Renaud uses to make the “tuck to split leg inversion” can be observed in some of the slow motion footage is not the same as the commonly observed “tuck inversion” by vaulters of relatively short stature and able to hold and take-off successfully with a top hand grip length equal to or greater than 5m.

What Renaud actually does (2015) in the initial pole support phase until the time of maximum pole bend demonstrably diverges from the current dogma which insists that pulling with the lower grip limb brings about the forceful change from the trail leg “sweep-swing action” into the tucked body configuration that culminates with a curled or “ball shaped backward rolling action” about the shoulder axis.

4. During the recoil phase until the second take-off (final pole hand grip contact release) Renaud Lavillenie is no longer using what would be identified as “shoot off action from the recoiling pole” in what we generally identify as “tuck and shoot technique”.

During the pole recoil Renaud is now using (2015) a hybrid combination of “split leg tuck into a more vertically directed spiral spin closer in alignment with the longitudinal axis of the recoiling pole in the shoot”. In the past his “Tuck and Shoot” was more akin to that observed in a “Trebuchet” action catapult. Gaining propulsive thrust from the recoiling pole Lavillenie has now morphed his action to become more like a spiraling bullet being projected from the rapidly recoiling pole.

These are preliminary comments. I invite readers to agree, disagree, add their own observations and analysis but in so doing be specific and use the frame numbers located at the lower right edge of the video so that we can all be on the same page.

I request that contributors keep comments directed specifically to what it is they perceive Renaud Lavillenie to be doing in 2015. The reference yardstick for comparative purposes is to be restricted to the Video evidence shown of Renaud’s 2014 Indoor World Record.

To keep the discussion on topic, maintain clarity, and above all reach some identifiable consensus arising from the discussion please feel free to ask questions and to question interpretations of the evidence. However since everyone will be using the same evidence as the basis for the questions and interpretations there should be no need for personal attacks.

We can learn a lot from any disagreement in regard to specific evidence. However, please refrain from commenting if all you want to do is vent or push a cherished hobby horse!

My comments above are intended as discussion starters only.

Once again PVP readers can we all try to present valuable and valued information for Advanced Coach and Advanced Vaulter subscribers in this section.

Here is the discussion video reference. I will appreciate your comments and contribution to this thread.

Renaud Lavillenie Season 2015 Technique Discussion Video.

https://youtu.be/0aQdxBYcsSg

This link now works when tested from my computer. This upload of the original video version appears to be working correctly. My apologies for the technical glitch but I now hope that you will be able to view the discussion video without any jitter and are able to see the frame reference numbers.
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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:20 pm

:yes:

PVStudent, you have established a great set of reference vids (RL in 2015) for us to dissect and discuss! Thanks for opening up this interesting topic!

Before I respond to any of your observations, a couple housekeeping items, which might help us as this thread grows (as it surely will)!

The pickiest ones first ...

The frame #s are hidden behind the youtube Settings gadget, so I have to get out of full screen mode to read them. No biggy, but in future (if you have control over this), please set the frame # a little more to the left.

You have not numbered every paragraph. So I will refer to your paragraphs by "x.y" format, where x = your stated topic #, and y = each paragraph # within each topic #s. e.g. #3.2 is the second paragraph under your 3rd topic.

I wish I knew the location, date, and bar height for each of the many jumps you posted. I recognize a few of them, and you do provide bar heights on a few of them - but I wish I knew all of them.

I hate your music! :D I would have far rather heard color commentary from you, but now that I know there is none, I simply keep the sound off. I don't know if you're able and willing to provide sound bites, but it sure would be great if you can.

You have drawn some arrows (and other notations) onto the vid, which is great. I wish you had numbered (or lettered) them, so that you and the rest of us can refer to them by a number or letter. I know you'll have comments re these arrows, and you'll be discussing them soon, once you hear our questions.

The only point you've made that I disagree with so far is re whether or not he's pushing post-takeoff. This is a point that GV made to me in a prior post (a few days or weeks ago). I will be willing to accept your point, but only if you provide some scientific proof (or at least your vid-based rationale) is true. Since you framed this thread this way, I think you would expect nothing less from me, GV, or anyone else.

You didn't mention anything about RL's free takeoff (or lack thereof). I would like to add that topic to this discussion thread, if that's OK by you. Please give it a topic #, and provide your scientifically based opinion, based on these vid clips. Or do you think we've already exhausted that topic?

To me, it's rather obvious that (in these vids), he's not showing a free takeoff, which is rather disappointing. I had thought that since his 2014 WR, he'd gotten closer to a free takeoff. True? So do you think it's less of a free takeoff than in 2014?

I guess if you give us dates of each event (including the Facebook practice day), then we'll see the chronology of each clearance. But it looks like they're not perfectly chronological, since I'm quite sure the FB one was AFTER his last meet of this year. Unless there's prior FB vids, and this is one of those (not the most recent one)? :confused:

Sorry for being so picky and fussy, but I'm hoping that you'll do more of these soon (maybe a 2015 or 2016 comparison of his technique v. Sean Barber's, for instance?).

So I wanted to give you some constructive criticism that might help us to critique the vids in future.

Thanks again.

Kirk
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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby PVstudent » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:32 am

Thanks for your critique points re the video. I agree with your picky points with regard to the video production and presentation.

The music is a generic piece automatically generated by the Nero software used to compile the video clips ,all of which were edited from the original sources referenced by their URlS on the video.

The video concludes with the October video posted by Renaud Lavillenie on Facebook for direct comparison with his first major indoor competition in February of 2015 at the start of the season.

The chronological order of the video clips starts with Renaud's Gold Reference Standard performance the Indoor World Record of February 2014. All subsequent clips are from 2015 competitions. I agree the order is not the in exact temporal order by date order of competition vaults.

My intention was to provide samples of the variability of the technique that occurred during season 2015. My deliberate choice was to vary the exact chronological order of these clips because the progression in technique was marked by showing progress (in my view) with occasional regression and thus did not show a linear rate or proceed in a direct temporal order from February to October.

Since the video sources are referenced they can be accessed and viewed in full. Limitation of YouTube rights and time length of the original videos meant extracts had to be made. The extracts are I agree my choices. Other readers are encouraged to make the same efforts and guide us to their video material specifically related to Renaud Lavillenie's Pole Vault Performance Technique for the season 2015.

Given the time available to me and the resources at my disposal, along with my desire not place too much of my personal bias on interpretation in the video, I refrained from adding my personal voice over commentary. This I though gave readers more scope to make their own personal observations and analyses of the resource material.

Kirk, I believe your response has been very much influenced by the original upload of the video, which I discovered having made my post, did not display properly.

I removed the original YouTube video and uploaded the video a second time and edited my PVP post to remove the old URL and replaced it with the new URL.

I have checked that the new URL (re posted below) works and so far as I am aware the video is now running properly. All the frame numbers display properly and are visible. The annotations example arrows are deliberated not labelled but serve to direct the viewers attention to the action sequence occurring from when they first appear. I think this works quite adequately now the video is running correctly and as I intended. In the stop frame mode on YouTube in non Full-screen display the frame numbers I agree are somewhat obscured.

It is a challenge on this site in most of the threads in the advanced section to keep the topic focussed and free from divergence off topic with the result that confusion reigns and voices of reason are lost in the process. With this in mind I would prefer to keep the thread to the specifics of Renaud Lavillenie' Technique. Should some consensus emerge from the discussion then I think sensible and clearly focused comparison with Shawn Barber would be of great interest and a very rewarding new thread to explore.

Your plea in regard to the scientific basis of the pushing issue debate I do not believe can be answered until there is some agreement that we are observing the same phenomenon and agree that the observation has been replicated. Until we have agreement about where, when and what precisely the phenomenon is, explanatory theory and hypotheses will remain purely at the qualitative level and rather ill defined.

This is the fundamental reason I have started the thread and by being prescriptive as to the focus for and by contributors. Until we agree we are on the same page it is unlikely that this thread will get anywhere other than roasting each other and resurrecting un digestible "hoary old chestnuts"!

My numbered observations are just my qualitative observation of, I readily acknowledge, limited recordings of sequential images of the performances of pole vault technique by a single pole vaulter albeit the Indoor World Record holder.

The rigour required to subject the recordings to scientific analysis cannot be met because of the inherent limitations in way the original video recording were made. That said it is still possible to subject qualitative analyses to critical analysis by correct application of principles and facts founded upon relevant scientifically obtained knowledge.

Renaud Lavillenie Season 2015 Technique Discussion Video.
https://youtu.be/0aQdxBYcsSg
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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:41 am

Sounds good to me! :yes:

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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby grandevaulter » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:50 pm

PVstudent wrote:2. The claim that Renaud uses his lower arm to push against the pole to “hold his COM lower and to simultaneously retard its rise rate” is evaluated and tested by plotting the curvilinear pathway of Renaud’s Centre of Mass (COM). The results show the claim to be highly questionable.


PVstudent wrote:The results show the claim to be highly questionable.


Following the recent video at 20,900 to 21,150 clearly shows the pole ground angle and following take off pole grip angle leaves nothing more for the left arm to do than follow the shape of the pole. Very questionable claim by any expert.

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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:17 pm

grandevaulter wrote: Very questionable claim by any expert.

I wish you'd just say what you observe on the vid (and your interpretation of what you see), instead of throwing flames. PVStudent already warned all of us against such non-constructive behaviour. It's his thread, so let's all comply to the rules he's laid out for this thread, OK?

grandevaulter wrote:Following the recent video at 20,900 to 21,150 clearly shows the pole ground angle and following take off pole grip angle leaves nothing more for the left arm to do than follow the shape of the pole.

I'm left with feeling the flames, but I'm none the wiser re WHY you say the vid "clearly shows ...".

Please explain. I know you said ...
grandevaulter wrote:... leaves nothing more for the left arm to do than follow the shape of the pole.

... but you're not explaining WHY you've drawn that conclusion.

I'm all ears.

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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:05 am

KirkB wrote:I'm left with feeling the flames, but I'm none the wiser re WHY you say the vid "clearly shows ...".
:crying: I didn't intend to offend you Kirk, you weren't the expert that I was referring to. :eek:

KirkB wrote:... but you're not explaining WHY you've drawn that conclusion.

I'm all ears.

Kirk

The bottom arm starts out bent and with the elbow out. As energy that is put into the pole as a result of the weight and velocity applied from the top hand causes the grip to bend away from the bottom arm. This leaves no other place for the bottom arm to go (straight out to follow the bend in the grip ), unless he starts pulling. But he doesn't pull or at least does not appear to be pulling.

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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:28 am

grandevaulter wrote: The bottom arm starts out bent and with the elbow out. As energy that is put into the pole as a result of the weight and velocity applied from the top hand causes the grip to bend away from the bottom arm. This leaves no other place for the bottom arm to go (straight out to follow the bend in the grip ), unless he starts pulling. But he doesn't pull or at least does not appear to be pulling.

Sorry for being touchy about this, GV. I was confused when you referred to an "expert", because I certainly don't consider myself one. I do, however, consider PVStudent an expert. It was only because of our disagreement in that previous thread that I thought you might have been directing your comments to me (especially since I thought you were agreeing with PVStudent).Thanks for your clarification.

I had recalled that in that other thread a few weeks ago that I thought I had seen RL "stiff-arm" the pole after takeoff (similar to in the video frames you refer to). I still see that in your stated frames (20,900-21,500) in the vid in this thread. It might even be that the old thread has the same footage of RL as this new thread.

This "stiff-arming" is something that you cannot see if you just step thru frame by frame or slo-mo. You have to watch at full speed (or maybe half speed) to appreciate the timing of this. Otherwise, I would have to agree that there's no intentional action here - he's just holding onto the pole with his bottom hand.

Stated a little differently, the way I see it is that he takes off under, and applies force into the pole with his bottom arm. I think that's indisputable - isn't it?

Then he has a fairly good downswing (but lacks the kind of "stretch" that Bubka had, with chest driving forwards). And THEN (after all that, quite separate from his initial "stiff-arm" on takeoff), I see yet another concerted effort to push the pole with RL's bottom arm.

I will certainly agree that it's that age-old dilemma of interpretation of videos - is he pushing, or is he simply hanging onto the pole?And in the case of Bubka (many years ago on PVP), I argued that Bubka was simply hanging onto the pole.

In these RL vids, I am arguing that, as I see it, he's doing more than just hanging onto the pole. He has his bottom arm locked, and he's pushing with it for a split second. And I agree that he's not pulling with it.

I think my position is now clear on this, and so is yours. PVStudent, it's your turn.

Kirk
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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:29 am

grandevaulter wrote: The bottom arm starts out bent and with the elbow out. As energy that is put into the pole as a result of the weight and velocity applied from the top hand causes the grip to bend away from the bottom arm. This leaves no other place for the bottom arm to go (straight out to follow the bend in the grip ), unless he starts pulling. But he doesn't pull or at least does not appear to be pulling.

Sorry for being touchy about this, GV. I was confused when you referred to an "expert", because I certainly don't consider myself one. I do, however, consider PVStudent an expert. It was only because of our disagreement in that previous thread that I thought you might have been directing your comments to me (especially since I thought you were agreeing with PVStudent).Thanks for your clarification.

I had recalled that in that other thread a few weeks ago that I thought I had seen RL "stiff-arm" the pole after takeoff (similar to in the video frames you refer to). I still see that in your stated frames (20,900-21,500) in the vid in this thread. It might even be that the old thread has the same footage of RL as this new thread.

This "stiff-arming" is something that you cannot see if you just step thru frame by frame or slo-mo. You have to watch at full speed (or maybe half speed) to appreciate the timing of this. Otherwise, I would have to agree that there's no intentional action here - he's just holding onto the pole with his bottom hand.

Stated a little differently, the way I see it is that he takes off under, and applies force into the pole with his bottom arm. I think that's indisputable - isn't it?

Then he has a fairly good downswing (but lacks the kind of "stretch" that Bubka had, with chest driving forwards). And THEN (after all that, quite separate from his initial "stiff-arm" on takeoff), I see yet another concerted effort to push the pole with RL's bottom arm.

I will certainly agree that it's that age-old dilemma of interpretation of videos - is he pushing, or is he simply hanging onto the pole?And in the case of Bubka (many years ago on PVP), I argued that Bubka was simply hanging onto the pole.

In these RL vids, I am arguing that, as I see it, he's doing more than just hanging onto the pole. He has his bottom arm locked, and he's pushing with it for a split second. And I agree that he's not pulling with it.

I think my position is now clear on this, and so is yours. PVStudent, it's your turn.

Kirk
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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby PVstudent » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:13 am

My response to Grandevaulter and Kirk.

Renaud does not show a Free Take-off.

He is close.

But because of (a) backward lean (b) round arm plant action (c) compensatory stepping across the midline with the take-off leg towards his right side on the runway (d) completing the plant action top hand extension upwards towards the rear of his head rather than towards his forehead (e) lead leg drive in the culmination of the plant producing compensatory counter torque about the hip vertical axis to the off-centre line propulsive effort of the take-off leg, his take-off cannot be “Free” even though foot placement distance may be "on".

The pole has reduced its negative bend and is flexing forward in the plane of Renaud’s momentum prior to breaking of ground contact by the take-off foot.

The video of the jumps in the European Championships 2015 in which there are excellent images to show Renaud’s technique from front on indicate to me that:

(a) During the take-off until take-off leg toe is off the ground BOTH arms are being pushed predominantly upwards against the resistance offered by the pole. Both hand at this stage are gripping the pole firmly.

(b) Immediately following take-off (toes have broken ground contact) both hands grip the pole but the lower grip hand has fingers flexed firmly on the pole but the wrist is flexed. The lower grip limb is flexed slightly at the elbow and upper arm is laterally abducted. Renaud is in suspension. Vaulter momentum and weight continue to bring about pole bend primarily forwards and the pole chord is being rotated about the pole tip transverse axis in the planting box.

(c) Forward penetration of the torso and lower limbs (lower limb separation angle in the fore aft direction is large with the lead leg knee flexed and hip flexed & adducted) occurs primarily about the transverse axis of both the wrists. Both hands are gripping the pole with closed grips (fingers of both hands firmly clasped around the pole shaft with cylindrical type grips).

(d) Advancement of the vaulter penetration and initiation of the trail leg swing increase the bending moment acting about the pole tip and the top hand grip. This is clearly observable in the lengthening of the top grip arm shoulder girdle segment and the inferred tension I perceive to be directed along that line passing through the torso and abdominal area to the pelvis. As this action takes place there is considerable local bending of the pole with the top grip becoming lower towards the runway than the bottom grip.

(e) Tension in bottom hand grip loosens immediately upon the maximum moment of inertia about the top grip hand being reached.

This has 2 effects:

(1) the lower grip arm extends by ECCENTRIC action about the wrist and elbow joint. The lower arm total segment is LENGTHENED by the pole bend moving in the opposite direction to the torque created by the “paying out under tension” of primarily elbow flexor muscles. This is clearly seen by the elongation of the hand wrist observable in every jump shown. Simply stated, the lower arm goes straight but not by “Pushing Out with Extensor Muscle actions” but by the Elbow Flexors Lengthening in concert with the pole bend increase.

(2) The primary axes of rotation changes from the wrists to the shoulders and hips as maximum moment of inertia about the top grip hand occurs.

(f) Centre of Mass of the vaulter and of the total system (vaulter plus pole) continue to translate at a relatively constant rate hence there is no pushing or holding back action by the lower arm.

It needs to be shown that the rise of the COM’s is stopped for the assertion of holding back to be valid.

At the turning point from the pole bending phase into the recoil phase the transition is characterized in the graphs, contained in my first video, as showing no stoppage of motion but rather a rapid acceleration with the vertical motion component being predominant.

Also when the location of the vaulter's COM is considered with respect to the top hand location the vaulter's weight will act to pull the vaulter in a direction downward producing a torque that has to be resisted by the lower arm producing a tensile pulling force oppositely directed to the bending direction of the pole. It remains to be demonstrated that my finding and explanation is in error.

Yes, Renaud pushes during the propulsive ground phase of the take-off.

Once take-off has occurred and chest penetration has turned into propulsive trail leg swing Renaud does not push with the bottom hand against the pole during the 1st phase of pole support. I conclude that, on the basis of the qualitative observational evidence, that Renaud is actively pulling on the flexing pole throughout the 1st phase of pole support.

The video referred to below (an expanded extract from my first discussion video) has new observable numbering and jump heights indicated. I offer this for further consideration and to illustrate the points made above.
https://youtu.be/NKJckRGeSvM
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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby charlie » Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:43 pm

There is no push with the left hand, it is a BENT arm PRESS support UP! Not a push--block or clutch!

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Re: Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015

Unread postby PVstudent » Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:04 am

charlie wrote:There is no push with the left hand, it is a BENT arm PRESS support UP! Not a push--block or clutch!


Thanks for your response.

We agree there is no active upwardly directed push being exerted by Renaud Lavillenie's left hand after take-off has occurred in the pole bending phase of pole support.

Also I agree with you the lower grip whole arm segment (hand, lower arm, upper arm and left shoulder girdle & joint) action is not a "push--block or clutch!"

By "clutch" I am assuming you mean a rapidly applied jerk-like pull by Renaud's left arm against the motion direction of the pole bend.

Because Renaud's COM (Centre of Mass) is suspended below the level of both grips he is in a momentary hang during chest penetration followed by a powerful trail leg swing creating tangential acceleration of the vaulter COM about the suspension points axes namely the wrists, shoulders and hips.

It is therefore still unclear to me how you can make the assertion that the action of Renaud's Left arm
charlie wrote:it is a BENT arm PRESS support UP!
.

Your claim that "Bent arm Press support UP" is the action being shown by Renaud needs clarification because as it stands it is completely at odds with the statement that there is "no push with the left hand".

Until I can be clear about what your intended meaning is in using this expression "Bent arm Press support UP!" I do not agree with the assertion or the accuracy of this aspect of your observations of the video evidence being discussed.

Your response is appreciated and if you could clarify "Bent arm Press support Up" in reference to Renaud Lavillenie Technique 2015 videos we might find ourselves on commonly understood and acceptable grounds for full agreement.
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