loss of penitration with swing

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KirkB
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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:35 pm

I like your spunk! And I would hope that you would have just as much spunk in talking to your coach as in talking with us.

Let's break this down, point by point ...

Enloe11 wrote: my confidence is not my problem. I am going to hit the pole has hard as i can everytime and i land safely.

OK, fair enough. To explain this better, I'm not inferring that you lack confidence. I was merely suggesting that no matter how much confidence you may already have, you'll gain even more confidence with the knowledge (confidence) that you're not going to stall out and miss the pit. I suppose you're thinking of the word "confidence" differently that how I'm thinking of it.

And I am saying that you're stalling out. You see that, don't you? You shouldn't be landing so close to the box.

AND, your coach shouldn't be TAPPING you! Why is he tapping you? Is it because you're holding too high, or WHY? In my mind, there's hardly ever a good reason for a coach to tap. I'm strongly against tapping, and that's another topic to be discussed in a separate thread (search PVP for "tapping" - there's lots of discussion posted on this topic already).

Enloe11 wrote: My coach tells me to lead with my chest and drive my left arm up. So this is the way that i have to do it. I'm just trying to figure out how to do it.

I'm not convinced that you HAVE to drive your left arm up, just because you coach says so. On the one hand, I think (and have often recommended) that vaulters should trust their brick-and-mortar coach much more than any cyber-coach (and I still believe this). But on the other hand, if he's tapping you, I question his knowledge of PV coaching. AND if he's telling you to "drive your left arm up", then he had better have some good solutions to why you're stalling out. Some coaches do advise to use the left arm (I'm not one of them). But they can't just tell you that blindly. That advice must come with the full package --- of how to get thru the types of problems you're experiencing now. I believe that your biggest problem right now is that you're driving the bottom arm TOO MUCH!

AND, you wouldn't be asking us for cyber-advice if your coach had a good solution to the problem you've identified and are trying to solve!

Enloe11 wrote: On the topic of my left leg, I have been working on that and it is staying much longer through out the swing and rolling the pole over better, but like i said i need to get my take off better so that my swing is more efficient. I'm a short guy to be a vaulter (5'9) and i'm not the fastest either. But what i lack in those areas i feel like i make up for in strength, because i feel like i am very strong at only 160lbs. I have to run and jump into the plant and be as tall and extended as i possibly can be.
:yes:
Since you're slow but strong (those were my personal attributes too), driving with the chest, with a long trail leg is a very good technique for you. The more you drive the chest forwards, the more your trail leg will drive backwards (it's one of the Laws of Physics --- every action has an equal and opposite reaction). Just don't pause after that stretch; whip your trail leg down and forwards IMMEDIATELY after your stretch!

Enloe11 wrote: I need to drive my chest, extend arms up, and extend my trail leg back.
:yes: :no: :yes:
I'm not convinced that you NEED to extend your bottom arm up (press). Your top arm, yes. I think the only good reason you have for doing this is to obey your coach.

Enloe11 wrote: My problem is that when i try to drive my arms up i block and it goes to s***. I'm not going to just let off completely with my left arm because if i do that's the first thing my coach notices, and my hips still come under as so.

See previous comment.

Enloe11 wrote: idk how to expain my problem any better than that without getting all kinds of different fixes for stuff that i'm already working on.

You've done a good job of explaining yourself now, much better than in your first post in this thread.

You seem to suggest that you're getting too much advice on things you never asked about. Typically, you need to expect this when you post a vid on PVP. And you need to understand that all the parts of the vault are related --- sometimes more than you first realize. So I wouldn't shun any of the peripheral advice you're been getting ... it's all good!

My final thought is that maybe you should discuss the comments you've been getting here on PVP with your coach, and see what he says? Maybe he will be happy for outside opinions (but maybe not)? You won't know until you honestly discuss it with him.

Remember, you have more at stake in your career than he does. :idea:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

grandevaulter
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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:58 pm

grandevaulter wrote: 1. Check your grip width and look at your left arm position at maximum C position. Ideally it should be over your head and not in front. If the left elbow is positioned out and not down or in you will have sufficient strength to support yourself without prying on the pole, stop worrying about it.


grandevaulter wrote:2. It appears that you stop adding energy into the pole when you stop sweeping your left leg.


grandevaulter wrote:You need to be patient with results and make sure you are landing deep in the pit for your safety.


You are inhibiting your swing with y
Enloe11 wrote:My problem is that when i try to drive my arms up i block and it goes to s***. Im not going to jus let off completely with my left arm because if i do thats the first thing my coach notices, and my hips still come under as so. idk how to expain my problem any better than that without getting all kinds of different fixes for stuff that im already working on


The answers are before you.

Enloe11
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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby Enloe11 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:50 pm

KirkB wrote:I like your spunk! And I would hope that you would have just as much spunk in talking to your coach as in talking with us.

Let's break this down, point by point ...

Enloe11 wrote: my confidence is not my problem. I am going to hit the pole has hard as i can everytime and i land safely.

OK, fair enough. To explain this better, I'm not inferring that you lack confidence. I was merely suggesting that no matter how much confidence you may already have, you'll gain even more confidence with the knowledge (confidence) that you're not going to stall out and miss the pit. I suppose you're thinking of the word "confidence" differently that how I'm thinking of it.

And I am saying that you're stalling out. You see that, don't you? You shouldn't be landing so close to the box.

AND, your coach shouldn't be TAPPING you! Why is he tapping you? Is it because you're holding too high, or WHY? In my mind, there's hardly ever a good reason for a coach to tap. I'm strongly against tapping, and that's another topic to be discussed in a separate thread (search PVP for "tapping" - there's lots of discussion posted on this topic already).

Enloe11 wrote: My coach tells me to lead with my chest and drive my left arm up. So this is the way that i have to do it. I'm just trying to figure out how to do it.

I'm not convinced that you HAVE to drive your left arm up, just because you coach says so. On the one hand, I think (and have often recommended) that vaulters should trust their brick-and-mortar coach much more than any cyber-coach (and I still believe this). But on the other hand, if he's tapping you, I question his knowledge of PV coaching. AND if he's telling you to "drive your left arm up", then he had better have some good solutions to why you're stalling out. Some coaches do advise to use the left arm (I'm not one of them). But they can't just tell you that blindly. That advice must come with the full package --- of how to get thru the types of problems you're experiencing now. I believe that your biggest problem right now is that you're driving the bottom arm TOO MUCH!

AND, you wouldn't be asking us for cyber-advice if your coach had a good solution to the problem you've identified and are trying to solve!

Kirk


First off i just want to say thanks for the help Kirk! Alright first, the man in the video is not my coach that is my uncle who was a vaulter himself and i went and jumped with them for a bit one day. Second the reason he was tapping me was because he wanted me to get practice on a stiffer pole. I tend to do things more technically right on smaller poles, but i still have the blocking problem. The reason i was stalling out is because i would block and lose my pole speed. If i did things correctly i wouldnt have a problem

So what im concluding is that you do not believe that i should press my arm upwards. What should i do with it then? i cant let it hit me in the forehead. Another problem with this is that i seem to lean back/ get sucked up if i dont push my arm up. just not a good deal. But since coach is an arm press believer, how would i go about doing this with out blocking? what could i do to persay, regulate my pressure and not block off.

grandevaulter
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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby grandevaulter » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:39 pm

Enloe11 wrote:So what im concluding is that you do not believe that i should press my arm upwards. What should i do with it then? i cant let it hit me in the forehead. Another problem with this is that i seem to lean back/ get sucked up if i dont push my arm up. just not a good deal. But since coach is an arm press believer, how would i go about doing this with out blocking? what could i do to persay, regulate my pressure and not block off.

Please take my comments in stride and understand that I teach and coach the Petrov/Bubka technical model from the book "From Beginner to Bubka and Isnebayeva too".

What you and your coach think you should be doing with your left arm seem to be the primary issue. Your coach is correct but you can't get your left hand stays too far in front of your forhead and causes you to decelerate and brake your swing. Your uncle, Kirk, Charlie, others and myself are muddying up the water with good intentions. I'll give it one more try.

1. Check and narrow grip.

2.Push both hands high to the sky in the plant/take off. Left hand should rise and be pulled back above your head.

3. Position left elbow out to the left.

4. Left hand should rise and be pulled back above your head.You should instinctively produce the left arm push/pull. (Getting used to it may take a while, be patient with results)

Or just keep slogging away.



3.

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KirkB
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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:21 pm

Enloe11 wrote: First off i just want to say thanks for the help Kirk!

You're very welcome.

Enloe11 wrote: So what i'm concluding is that you do not believe that i should press my arm upwards. What should i do with it then? i cant let it hit me in the forehead. Another problem with this is that i seem to lean back/ get sucked up if i dont push my arm up. just not a good deal. But since coach is an arm press believer, how would i go about doing this with out blocking? what could i do to persay, regulate my pressure and not block off.

That's correct --- you don't need to press your arm upwards. The pole will bend by the force through your top hand only! Pressing only slows down your swing, causing the blockage that you want to get rid of.

It's a common misconception that you'll get fiber-faced (the pole hitting your head) if you don't press up with your bottom arm. I didn't believe my coach either when he said I didn't need to apply any pressure with the bottom arm, and the pole WILL BEND OUT OF THE WAY OF YOUR HEAD. Once I tried that, it has never been an issue for me since. The pole will bend out of the way of your head.

HOWEVER, to achieve this, you need good body posture. Not only just before takeoff, but also post-takeoff. Good body posture means driving the chest forwards, with a slight forwards lean. It also implies letting your top hand go above and behind your head, and your bottom hand going wherever it needs to go (all you do is hang onto the pole - no other effort is required with your bottom hand).

Grandevaulter is right about the position of the bottom elbow. If you just raise it off the the side (instead of putting it in line with your body in a blocking position), then you will lose the ability to block out with it. This is a GOOD thing!

Enloe11 wrote: what could i do to persay, regulate my pressure and not block off.

If you keep your bottom elbow raised off to the side (as Grandevaulter recommends), there should be no pressure to regulate, and you won't block off. :idea:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Mar 06, 2015 3:40 pm

grandevaulter wrote:2. Push both hands high to the sky in the plant/take off.
:yes:
Enloe, note that this is BEFORE takeoff or ON takeoff (not AFTER takeoff)!

grandevaulter wrote: Left hand should rise and be pulled back above your head.
:yes:
Enloe, note that you don't need to take any cognizant action to CAUSE this to happen. It's just WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN.

grandevaulter wrote: 3. Position left elbow out to the left.
:yes:
This will make it more difficult to block out, which is a GOOD thing! This position should be set ON takeoff (not AFTER takeoff). If you wait until AFTER takeoff, you will have already started to block out.

grandevaulter wrote: You should instinctively produce the left arm push/pull. (Getting used to it may take a while, be patient with results)

Enloe, notice that Grandevaulter is not saying to take any cognizant action here. He is only describing WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN.

Again, I think Grandevaulter and I are mostly in synch, but I am emphasizing the things that YOU MUST DO to improve your vault technique, whereas he is also adding some additional comments about WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN (which I think muddies the waters too much).

In particular, I think many young vaulters misunderstand the "Push both hands high to the sky in the plant/take off." that Grandevaulter mentions. Too many vaulters think that this also means AFTER takeoff. But it doesn't.

It may even be that your coach got this wrong too - wherever he learned his technique from.

Enloe, if you "didn't push both hands to the sky AFTER takeoff", you wouldn't block out.

Kirk
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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby vquestpvc » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:53 am

Won't try to labor this too much more as a lot has already been written. What I will simply note is from what I've read is Enloe is so fixated on the position at take off. Which is so important and essential, but it can't be treated as a "phase". There are no phases in vaulting only continuous movement. So, hit that "solid", high hand position at take off and whip the trail leg. One of the best expression I've heard regarding the take off and leg whip is it occurs at "zero" meaning that at take off bring the trail leg. Try to jump to a horizontal bar with trail leg behind, stop to check chest position and then whip leg. Won't work. Now, jump to horizontal bar with trail leg back and at the point the hands grab bar, whip the leg. It works! You should be able to swing over the bar. Essentially, pole vaulting is creating a horizontal bar and swinging over it. In PA we have a young man who was a HS state champ at the high bar. Since he has had great success vaulting presently at 16'6". Is that a coincidence? Ask around.

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Re: loss of penetration with swing

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:45 pm

vquestpvc wrote: Essentially, pole vaulting is creating a horizontal bar and swinging over it.
:yes:

From a different thread:
KirkB wrote: DJ has often mentioned (in commenting on Mike Tully's swing technique) that he would:
... bend the pole into a high bar... and do a giant off the top ...
:yes:

Kirk
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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby Enloe11 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 2:04 pm

vquestpvc wrote:Won't try to labor this too much more as a lot has already been written. What I will simply note is from what I've read is Enloe is so fixated on the position at take off. Which is so important and essential, but it can't be treated as a "phase". There are no phases in vaulting only continuous movement. So, hit that "solid", high hand position at take off and whip the trail leg. One of the best expression I've heard regarding the take off and leg whip is it occurs at "zero" meaning that at take off bring the trail leg. Try to jump to a horizontal bar with trail leg behind, stop to check chest position and then whip leg. Won't work. Now, jump to horizontal bar with trail leg back and at the point the hands grab bar, whip the leg. It works! You should be able to swing over the bar. Essentially, pole vaulting is creating a horizontal bar and swinging over it. In PA we have a young man who was a HS state champ at the high bar. Since he has had great success vaulting presently at 16'6". Is that a coincidence? Ask around.



This was a point me and my coach were getting to monday. I was driving to long essentially and my swing was "late" i guess you could say. I was hitting my plant and try to hold it, and thats where my hips would come under instead of hitting my take off and whipping my leg through. So thats something that ill be working on today. Thank you for comfirming!

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Re: loss of penitration with swing

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:16 am

vquestpvc wrote:There are no phases in vaulting only continuous movement.

Yes there are phases, ideally no passive phases.

vquestpvc wrote:One of the best expression I've heard regarding the take off and leg whip is it occurs at "zero" meaning that at take off bring the trail leg.

The pre jump take off was designed with the intention of seamlessly maximizing and transferring energy from the horizontal path to the verical path.

vquestpvc wrote:Try to jump to a horizontal bar with trail leg behind, stop to check chest position and then whip leg. Won't work. Now, jump to horizontal bar with trail leg back and at the point the hands grab bar, whip the leg. It works! You should be able to swing over the bar. Essentially, pole vaulting is creating a horizontal bar and swinging over it.

Please clarify this in relationship to the pole vault. Also try to swing over the bar with your left hand 12" in front of your forehead. It doesn't work either.


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