Take off step

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Enloe11
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Take off step

Unread postby Enloe11 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 3:40 pm

I have been vaulting for 7 years now so my brain has been trained to take off within a certain distance. Im just starting to get on to 15' poles now and im starting to raise my hand grip closer and closer to the top. With doing that my take off step is getting further and further out. I've never taken off past 12' and now im suppose to be taking off closer to 13'. My problem is that im so use to taking off at about 12' that my body compinsates and i put my self under 6" to 1' which in not good when you start gettng on big poles. How can I make my self take off where I need too.

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Re: Take off step

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 5:48 pm

Enloe, I do not recommend this but I saw it work. A tennis shoe was placed on the line and nobody stretched. Better off just to imagine its there!
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Re: Take off step

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:00 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Enloe, I do not recommend this but I saw it work. A tennis shoe was placed on the line and nobody stretched. Better off just to imagine its there!

This is a really stupid idea. It was stupid of whatever coach did this in the first place, and it's even stupider for you to post it on PVP (even with your cautions).

PVDaddy, if you don't recommend this, then why the heck would you even mention this? If someone steps on it, they could hurt themselves --- BADLY. :no:

I am cautioning all vaulters and coaches to ignore this stupid tennis shoe idea. Pretend it's there? Wouldn't a simple strip of tape be better? :confused:

Kirk

p.s. Unfortunately (or fortunately, in this case --- for safety's sake), the way that ignoring someone on PVP works, it shows the original post, but then hides them thereafter.
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Re: Take off step

Unread postby Rhino » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:08 pm

Calm down, Kirk!

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Re: Take off step

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:46 pm

Did I recommend to do this? No. In fact I recommended just the opposite! Stretching is a psychological problem that many if not most have a hard time overcoming. They feel a need to go to that same take-off spot (even though that spot is actually more dangerous and less beneficial now that they are using a longer pole) because they feel safe and comfortable there (That's what worked in the past). This can even be an unconscious action.
A Psychological problem requires a Psychological solution. If the vaulter replaces that fear that taking off out is dangerous, with the true threat, that taking off under really is dangerous they will be a lot less likely to take off under. Imagining that a tennis shoe is on the back side of that line is the psychological tool that helps even the unconcious to make the adjustment that the take-off spot further out is the safe more beneficial and now more comfortable place to take off from.
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Re: Take off step

Unread postby AVC Coach » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:50 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Did I recommend to do this? No. In fact I recommended just the opposite! Stretching is a psychological problem that many if not most have a hard time overcoming. They feel a need to go to that same take-off spot (even though that spot is actually more dangerous and less beneficial now that they are using a longer pole) because they feel safe and comfortable there (That's what worked in the past). This can even be an unconscious action.
A Psychological problem requires a Psychological solution. If the vaulter replaces that fear that taking off out is dangerous, with the true threat, that taking off under really is dangerous they will be a lot less likely to take off under. Imagining that a tennis shoe is on the back side of that line is the psychological tool that helps even the unconcious to make the adjustment that the take-off spot further out is the safe more beneficial and now more comfortable place to take off from.



PVDaddy,
This might be the most ridiculous advice I've ever heard. I'm not sure you have any idea what to tell an athlete that's asking a legitimate question about vault technique or remedies. You back pedaled about as far as possible on this one. Understanding a few concepts of the physics of the vault and actually conveying sound advice on how to improve are in two separate categories. I hate to call anyone out on their interpretations or philosophies when it comes to the pole vault and I don't ever want to sound like a know it all, but I know enough about this event to honestly say that your advice seemed to be made up on the spot with no real evidence or experience to support it. Please leave the advice giving to the coaches that have experience solving these problems. Posting in the "Advanced" section doesn't necessarily make you an "Advanced" coach or critic of the vault, for that matter. Read, practice, ask questions, repeat. While you're configuring your ideas and opinions, practice these theories on your own students - the students that come to you for lessons, not on your perceived internet students.

I'm sorry to blow up like this but there are some serious safety issues here.

Enloe11, please PM me and I'll give you some pointers and explanations on the progression of the solution you're seeking.

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Re: Take off step

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:00 pm

AVC Coach, if you have some great advice for this, why not share them here, so other vaulters can benefit?
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Re: Take off step

Unread postby PV2020 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:26 pm

PVDaddy wrote:Enloe, I do not recommend this but I saw it work. A tennis shoe was placed on the line and nobody stretched. Better off just to imagine its there!


The shoe, NO, something, YES.

It also depends on the athlete and if they have the mental gusto to just turn over and jump without slowing down because of the object. I really like the 1 inch foam pad that come with UCS standard protectors (it is about 1 foot by 4 foot). If someone is currently taking off at 10 foot, I will start the pad at about 8' (More than enough room) so that they just get used to taking off with it there. Even being 2 feet away, most people will be at about 10'6 on the next jump. Because their body is actively thinking 'jump' which makes them get the last foot down quicker. I will then slowly move it back a few inches each time. And can usually push it back to where they should be or a few inches under.

It looks somewhat bulky, but I typically start doing it from a short approach jump. Have had a few people toe it before and it never really threw them off. A line on the ground is not really easy to see, and most people have no problem stepping on a towel, so this having a little volume makes most people get their feet down and jump.

Most people have a natural awareness to just not want to step on stuff. So they do not really even need to try and not step on it, just turn over and jump. This is the same way long jump coaches have people jump from the sand and not the board. You naturally do not want to step in the sand so you can work on turning over quick and jumping.

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Re: Take off step

Unread postby Enloe11 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:12 pm

PV2020 wrote:
PVDaddy wrote:Enloe, I do not recommend this but I saw it work. A tennis shoe was placed on the line and nobody stretched. Better off just to imagine its there!


The shoe, NO, something, YES.

It also depends on the athlete and if they have the mental gusto to just turn over and jump without slowing down because of the object. I really like the 1 inch foam pad that come with UCS standard protectors (it is about 1 foot by 4 foot). If someone is currently taking off at 10 foot, I will start the pad at about 8' (More than enough room) so that they just get used to taking off with it there. Even being 2 feet away, most people will be at about 10'6 on the next jump. Because their body is actively thinking 'jump' which makes them get the last foot down quicker. I will then slowly move it back a few inches each time. And can usually push it back to where they should be or a few inches under.

It looks somewhat bulky, but I typically start doing it from a short approach jump. Have had a few people toe it before and it never really threw them off. A line on the ground is not really easy to see, and most people have no problem stepping on a towel, so this having a little volume makes most people get their feet down and jump.

Most people have a natural awareness to just not want to step on stuff. So they do not really even need to try and not step on it, just turn over and jump. This is the same way long jump coaches have people jump from the sand and not the board. You naturally do not want to step in the sand so you can work on turning over quick and jumping.


so say I need to ba taking off at 13', but Im taking off at about 11'8. I should get some thing to put on the run way so that I can metally put my foot down and jump. Ive done this before so I wouldnt care if its a shoe or foam board. Should I put the edge of the shoe about 12'6 so ill have room if i go a little over? cause i dont want to get rejected because i dont hit a plant because im taking off so far out.

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Re: Take off step

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:44 pm

Enloe11 wrote: so say I need to be taking off at 13', but I'm taking off at about 11'8. I should get some thing to put on the run way so that I can mentally put my foot down and jump. I've done this before so I wouldn't care if it's a shoe or foam board. Should I put the edge of the shoe about 12'6 so i'll have room if i go a little over? cause i don't want to get rejected because i don't hit a plant because i'm taking off so far out.

Don't use a shoe. Besides the safety factor, it will cause you to focus TOO MUCH on hitting your mark --- even to the point of looking down at the shoe to make sure you don't step on it. So don't do that. As said by myself and others above, the shoe idea is a bad, bad, bad idea.

So that's what NOT to do.

As far as WHAT to do ...

Foam is OK --- the lighter the better (in case you step on it, it should be no danger whatsoever). A thin layer of plasticine (used in LJ), or even a sheet of 8.5" x 11" paper taped to the runway (but make sure you use spikes --- even on your shortest runups --- as you will slip on paper with flats) might be even better. It's better because you will see your mark AFTER your jump (when you walk out of the pit and check it). Change paper sheets frequently. Spotters are often used to "catch your takeoff", but even the best spotter can forget or can make a mistake, so seeing a visible imprint on the paper (or plasticine or foam) is even better. If your coach is spotting, this allows your coach to watch your entire vault, without missing it becuz he's spotting.

So now that we've established what NOT to do, and WHAT to do, the third thing is to just focus on your run cadence --- no chopping and no overstriding. What you need is consistency, and you need this consistency on each and every jump attempt.

When striving for consistency, don't go all-in on just your long run with stiffest pole. Keep your eyes focussed straight ahead (don't look down). Develop your consistency over time, starting with a lighter pole and shorter runup. Work up gradually.

If you find that you're overstriding or chopping, then go back to a lighter pole and shorter runup GRADUALLY until it's consistent again, then GRADUALLY move back up to a heavier pole and longer runup. Do this, and you should NOT have any fear of getting rejected by the pole. This all has to do with the theory of incremental (gradual) improvement. It's abrupt changes that cause rejection; gradual changes aren't as abrupt, so won't cause nearly as much rejection (except for the odd jump when your cadence is way off for some strange reason).

The name of the game is consistency in your cadence. You should FEEL this consistency without any regard to whether you think you're under or out on takeoff. You don't have to look down at the paper (or plasticine or foam) while you're planting. You can just check it AFTER your jump. That's key.

To answer your latest question, place the sheet of paper (or plasticine or foam) so that it will catch your footprint no matter if you're in or out. Then adjust your next jump from there (comparing where you took off from with your ideal takeoff point --- which you will have marked with a line of tape).

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Take off step

Unread postby grandevaulter » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:19 am

One way to Stabilize your run and develop a consistent take off is to do 20/20s, claws and ostrich steps. Petrov's 6 step plant drills, walking, jogging and running fast. Do full approach runs with plants on the track or in the gym. Video and review for quality and consistency of stride, knee lift or lack of. Stretch a tape and have your coach or training partner record your take off step. Review data. Six of each drill, three days a week.

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Re: Take off step

Unread postby vquestpvc » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:08 am

All approaches in the jumps are primarily based on rhythm; the pole vault shouldn't be any different. As already suggested, get away from the pit and run your approach on the track. What I further suggest is counting your takeoff step on each subsequent stride so that when you're at your final step, you know that you must jump. Actually, you should count each takeoff foot in the approach until the next to last step (penultimate step or opposite foot). The notion of a "free takeoff" becomes negligible the further up the pole you hold, but should be attempted none the less. This notion of taking off on your final step should help you take off more readily on mark. Using a mark on the runway only insures you are looking at it which i believe will ultimately slow you down at take off. Many vaulters say they don't count, but it can help you develop a new rhythm for an adjusted approach.


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