Should you pull at take off?

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KirkB
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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:39 pm

IAmTheWalrus wrote: Looks like we can put this one to bed.

Any thoughts on the vids I posted or the technical comments I made in my prior post.

Peace! :rose:

Re your vids, it is quite noticeable to see your change in technique from a push to a (so-called) pull. I can't say for sure, because I don't really know what you were focussing on (other than not to push - which as you know I'm totally against).

Are you saying that you're pulling with the BOTTOM arm in that vid? I believe that's what Agapit was advocating, but correct me if I'm wrong. If you're pulling with the bottom arm, how is that different from a "row"? I know Agapit wasn't advocating a "row", but it looks like that may be what you're doing. Is it? :confused:

Why didn't you just pull (lat pull, as Tim explained) with the TOP arm? Just asking - I honestly don't understand this.

I think it was Vaultman18 that tried to explain this to me a few years ago, but I still didn't get it. I guess I have a mental block about this. :confused:

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:50 pm

vaultman18 wrote: ... The pull is a very small but important part of the entire vault. Poor running mechanics, posture, pole carry, plant action, under take-off, jumping ability, etc tend to lead vaulters to push on the pole. I don't really talk about pulling with my vaulters but I do talk about not pushing.

I personally think/believe that if a vaulter can correct/master a proper run/plant/take-off it will be immediately obvious to them that when they push they are so far behind the vault it is nearly impossible to finish. I think the idea of moving the pole with the bottom hand/arm is ridiculous and ineffective. But rather it should be moved by a proper plant, take-off and through the top hand.

This makes sense - especially the last 2 sentences!

And if I dug up your old posts re "the pull", Vaultman, they would probably make more sense to me now too!

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sat Nov 01, 2014 10:23 pm

IAmTheWalrus wrote:How am I trolling?

This is a thread about pulling at take off. Then after two pages of trolling over it, out comes the 6.40 model. If that is what this thread is about ( I forgot it's not your thread) Just say so. Or maybe I can summons Branko. Then get a wise remark about "what it says about a long leg sweep".

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Fri Nov 07, 2014 11:18 am

Branko720 wrote:Ok so obviously there is a lot of debate about technique. I even hear some coaches out there professing that they coach the Petrov/Bubka model, but then they talk about pushing/blocking at take off. Other coaches out there love the swing, but really say nothing about what the arms should be doing.

I provide the following video. Maybe this might help. Any comments or questions would be great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mQsGGujUMs

New postby agapit » Sat Apr 23, 2005 6:41 pm

USMC Vaulter wrote:
Agapit, could you please be more descriptive in what you mean by 'pushing' with the left arm? Some have taken this as you meaning something along the lines of locking out your bottom arm at take off - but I dont think that is what you were talking about...


This may seem radical to you, so you may not want to read further.

By pushing the left arm I mean applying ANY resistance* against the pole with the left arm unless the resistance** is directed to enhance natural body swing acceleration.

*I should say push on the pole to avoid scientific discussion of what the resistance means from physic’s point of view.
**Pull on the pole. It is still a resistance from physic’s perspective but in the opposite direction to pushing.

Yes, yes, what I am saying you must pull on the pole immediately after the take-off.

Most will argue that this is impossible and that no one has ever done it. Well if you study videos you will find that you are right!!! Perhaps this is why no one has really fully adopted the model yet. Again, you must think of the intentions of the vaulter not the actual performance. Perhaps that is why sport scientists have difficulty coaching (I hope, I did not offend anyone).

Pulling on the pole with the left arm immeadeately after the jump to enhance your body inversion is exactly what you should attempt to do. Imperfections will delay the pull. Flat take-off, late plant, and other imperfections will demand more of the chest penetration. On the contrary better take-off performance will require less of the chest penetration (see different Bubka’s videos) and or push with the left arm.

I must say that even during very bad take-off performances, Bubka has never pushed the pole with the left arm. His left arm at worst collapsed, letting the chest to go forward delaying the inversion and after that it would move (noted correctly by altius) chasing the increasing bend of the pole until it is biomechanicaly in a position to enhance the speed of the body inversion by pulling on the pole.

I can bet you that Bubka has never trained the left arm chasing action, because it is a compensatory reactive action and in perfect performance this would be an undesirable and non-existent action

This was an excerpt from an Agapit post several years ago. I can live with this. Grip width and left elbow position seem to be key to these movements.

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby Branko720 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:13 pm

Hey everyone. Sorry for taking so long to make the following videos. I've been real busy coaching. There really is no off season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNiXhYMrNAA

The above video is our zero step progression and the following video is one of my athlete's progression from the traditional Petrov/Bubka model to the 640 model.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jb3GavUvP1I

Let me know if these videos help show you how pulling may benefit the vault, or if anyone has comments or questions.

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby PV2020 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:03 am

In the first set of videos you have an athlete with a bad plant and a free take off. She is taking off at 10' with a 12'6 grip and due to lack of plant and chest drive her swing is slow and she does not come off the pole well. The last video she is up 6 inches on 1 pole bigger (13' 160 to 13'7 155) and not taking off much farther than 10' so she is very under but fights to keep her chest up which causes a nice big stretch which leads to a faster and longer swing. I've seen a lot of people use this 'trick' in meets when they run out of poles. Just tell them to raise their grip and move up 6 inches, you get jammed and shot off the top.

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby Branko720 » Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:05 am

I'm not sure what is so bad about her plant from the traditional sense in the first two jumps, and I actually would like her left arm a little more extended before take-off so she doesn't get hit as much in the latter videos. And as far as what you see I get your point, but I am telling you what we trained and focused on, pulling off the ground, which created the improvements. She was using her arms instead of just swinging. You can do what you like, but I am just trying to show and explain how we got those improvements. What did you think about the zero step drill progression video?

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Nov 20, 2014 3:06 pm

Branko720 wrote: She was using her arms instead of just swinging.

This is a big can of worms.

By your inference, "just swinging" implies "just using your trail leg to swing". Is that what you mean? It also suggests a rather passive swing (although you don't specifically state this).

An efficient swing uses the muscles of both the arms and the legs!

Remember that you must stretch before you swing. Without first stretching, all is lost. I like highbar drills because you can't help but fully stretch - so it enforces the right way to swing.

My recommendation is to learn to swing on a highbar, and then apply that same swing to the pole. On the highbar, try initiating it with the arms. Then try initiating it with the legs.

The question is: Does the swing on the highbar get initiated by the trail leg, or by the arms?

Have your vaulters try both (swinging on the highbar with her arms vs. her trail leg), and compare.

There is NOT a binary answer to this - once all OTHER corrections are made (re takeoff point, jumping into a good stretch position with good posture, etc, etc), then the vaulter will "swing" (including the initiation of the swing) by using the combination of arm movement and leg movement that they've learned on the highbar.

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Last edited by KirkB on Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Nov 20, 2014 10:38 pm

In the first two videos she is not running as tall on the approach. Her head is forward and shoulders appear to be leaning forward as well. She does not extend her top arm completely until after it strikes the back of he box.

In the two later videos she runs taller and much stronger on the approach. Similar to a true Petrov/Bubka run up. She has her hips set and she does not hang her head over her torso. Her plant is synchronized and her top arm is higher prior to the pole hitting the back of the box.

You have done a great job helping her improve her run up in a true Petrov/Bubka fashion.

Length of approach would also be a pertinent statistic to publish with the information.

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby Branko720 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:55 am

Well, I'm not sure what to say. I know that Michelle did increase her speed from her sophomore year to her senior year. I would hope at least, otherwise our training programs wouldn't be worth anything. I am however trying to provide everyone with some information on how we got the transformation from a 12'8" pr, which is respectable, but all the way up to 13'9 3/4" pr which is on a completely different level. I am also providing videos that present the process for how we at Apex approach the technical aspects of the vault. I'm not sure what would prove our methods to you? Should I purposely train someone to get slower and hope that the technique will make up for it and still provide a pr? Obviously I'm being facetious.

Any way back to Michelle. In her videos previous to the switch to the 640 model her best push off the top of her grip was less than 8". After switching models she would open at about an 8" push from her grip. The technical model allowed for a better pole carry which I haven't even begun discussing, which also led to higher speeds on the runway. However, again the point I've been trying to make this whole time, is if you engage the bottom arm by pulling, you can accelerate the swing and get your center of mass to rise up faster. This lead to Michelle's increased ability to push off the top of her grip.

Below you will find one last video I have made to demonstrate the impact of the bottom arm. Enjoy. Comments and questions are always welcome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k12mDaYoi9A&feature=youtu.be

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:43 pm

Branko720 wrote: I know that Michelle did increase her speed from her sophomore year to her senior year.

Speed alone without optimal body position in the approach will not yield optimal results.

Branko720 wrote:After switching models she would open at about an 8" push from her grip. The technical model allowed for a better pole carry which I haven't even begun discussing, which also led to higher speeds on the runway.

Looks like PB model.

Your comparisons and descriptions with #1 and #2 are smoke in mirrors in regard to "pulling with the left arm" Vaulter #2 stays behind the pole (engages the left arm and holds herself off the pole. "push?") and puts more energy into the pole with her leg sweep.

Vaulter #1 could still put energy into the pole even while collapsing the left arm if she didn't pull the sweep leg in and fail to "whip kick". Let's take a close look at #1's left elbow position and how it is out and a tad high. Drop that elbow a bit between 270 and 180 degrees and move the hand beneath the pole.

Branko, you and readers may benefit in reading old posts on this subject. I can appreciate your desire to "recreate the wheel". Lauren Eley did not hold herself off the pole but was able to put energy into the system with a PB takeoff and whip.

Postby agapit » Wed May 18, 2005 12:43 am
altius wrote:
Take a look at the photos of Lauren Eley on Page 43 of Beginner to Bubka.

Problem you have is that when you are gripping so low, the high pole ground angle when you plant makes it difficult for you to press upwards through the pole - so simply concentrate on maintaining pressure through the pole with your left hand/arm/whole body - but whatever you do try to stay behind the pole for as long as possible early on. See photos Pages 77 and 78 BTB. :D

Remember that what is technically desirable must be physically possible.

agapit wrote: That girl is amazing. Good showcase altius.

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby Cooleo111 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:56 am

grandevaulter wrote:Speed alone without optimal body position in the approach will not yield optimal results.

This seems to support Branko's assertion that there was some technique (running technique counts, too) taught in his model. In fact, he even alludes to this model allowing for an improved pole carry, which most will agree effects runway speed.

grandevaulter wrote:Looks like PB model.

Your comparisons and descriptions with #1 and #2 are smoke in mirrors in regard to "pulling with the left arm"

I can understand why you and many others can feasibly argue that this is a Petrov model being executed by watching this video. If you or anyone else had not read what Branko has already posted, you might present a credible analysis of two athletes attempting the Petrov model, but needing a few improvements. Unfortunately, pictures and even video do not tell the whole story!

Take these for example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wooo4n8weU4&list=UUYe6skCiwQXqKQrx91uHkPQ&index=7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPHdlD8Gk4c&list=UUYe6skCiwQXqKQrx91uHkPQ&index=5
If I had no idea who these athletes were, I would say that despite being way inside at takeoff, they get a nice pre-stretch and have a pretty great long sweeping trail leg! This is an obvious component of the Petrov model, so it would be somewhat logical to conclude that these athletes are keeping their trail leg long by design/intent. However, both of these guys are classic tuck-and-shoot vaulters, and (please correct me if I'm wrong, Tim) did NOT aim for a long trail leg as part of their model. They were focusing on different cues, which nevertheless resulted in a long trail leg.

I think that many vaulters and coaches alike get very tied up with how a vault "looks". Is visual feedback important in learning/coaching? Of course! Is it the only thing that one should consider? Absolutely not! From a scientific perspective, what matters in the end are pure numerical results, like runway velocity (m/s), angular velocity, grip height, bar height, etc. At the end of the day, the winner is the one who jumps the highest, not who looks the best doing it! Branko is sincerely filling us all in on what he focuses on with his athletes, much like Tim McMichael did several years ago with the model he used.
We also keep focusing on the long trail leg. Is this a biomechanical advantage? I think most, if not all of us, can agree that it is. What I think Branko is questioning by creating this thread is whether pulling with the bottom arm is another distinct biomechanical advantage (again, please correct me if I'm wrong). If it does, why aren't more people intentionally implementing it?

Furthermore:
vaultman18 wrote:For me it is very simple...if you don't do it on a stiff pole you should't do it on a bending pole.

Food for thought: The Petrov model attempts to emulate the original stiff-pole vaulters like Warmerdam, something that Petrov supposedly admitted himself. What do the arms do during a good, classic stiff-pole jump? If they are in fact pulling, why are those that advocate the merits of stiff-pole vaulting NOT having their athletes pull?

P.S. Please forgive me for using your videos without asking permission, Tim! :o


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