Should you pull at take off?

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby PV2020 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:28 pm

Branko720 wrote: If the mechanics work in a drill, they should work from full approach and if it works from full approach it should work from a drill. Does that sound logical?


No.

Take for instance shot put or high jump. They both plant their lead leg in order to prevent it from 'mushing' and to better transfer the energy from the glide (or approach in HJ). If you were to do a standing shot put throw and plant your leg properly, you actually will not throw it as far as if you were to bend the lead knee and and roll over to get the shot put moving better. So in this case, doing the drill differently than the technique you will use for a full throw, will make it go farther. In the case of the shot put, if you mush that lead leg on a full throw you will probably throw pretty flat and might fall out of the circle. The same goes with high jump. If you told someone to do one step and jump in the high jump, they would have to bend the take off leg in order to jump more. But in a real high jump the plant leg hits the ground out in front of the body and straight in order to transfer the energy from the approach run up. But because there is no approach run, someone taking just one step and jumping might mush a little more. This is why you can have a bad vertical, but still high jump pretty high.

One of the most effective things about a smooth long swing is that it can more efficiently transfer the energy of the run, through the swing, and off the top of the pole. During a 'zero drill' there is no run energy to be transferred, so to move up and off the pole, the athlete has to generate that same energy in a different way (pulling in your case).

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:28 pm

Branko720 wrote:
it's teaching the bad habit of pulling with BOTH arms (bent at the elbows way too much). If she were to swing more properly (with at least the top arm fully stretched), she would have to drop her CoG immediately after she leaves the ground - this is NOT something you want to do


I don't understand the above comments.

I don't understand yours either, but I'll try to ...

Branko720 wrote: If you can't make it into the pit with a "long sweep leg" and disregarding the pull, what does that say about your "long sweep leg?"

Also Kirk, if your COG would have to drop from a zero to swing properly, what do you think happens in a full approach? If the mechanics work in a drill, they should work from full approach and if it works from full approach it should work from a drill. Does that sound logical? Therefore, if the girls are making it into the pit with the pull, that means it does not prevent penetration into the pit. ...

The reason I don't like that zero step drill is because she's holding so low. So low that she MUST bend BOTH elbows just so she doesn't drop her CoG. She's also propelling her legs up not by the force of her run or any technique with her arms, but in a contrived way that bears little or no relationship to the true vault action (or the motions you must go thru to learn the true vault action). That's all I'm saying.

So quite honestly, I don't know what you mean when you ask 'what does that say about your "long sweep leg?"'

Your next question is also quite confusing - I have no idea what you're asking. My comments were strictly restricted to the fact that she's holding lower on the pole than the height she can reach, so OF COURSE she must bend her elbows in a contrived way. So I see no relationship between this vault and any true pull or swing action on the pole. And I honestly don't see how you arrive at the conclusion that: "... the girls are making it into the pit with the pull, that means it does not prevent penetration into the pit". :confused:

In the vid, you ask: "is the left arm pulling?"

I guess your inference (in the first vid, at least) is that her left arm is pulling, and that's a good thing. I guess I'm missing your point, because I don't think that drill proves anything about whether to pull or not - it's too contrived, especially with such a low grip and no run.

I guess I'll just have to wait for your new vids, so I can understand your point a little better.

PV2020 wrote: One of the most effective things about a smooth long swing is that it can more efficiently transfer the energy of the run, through the swing, and off the top of the pole. During a 'zero drill' there is no run energy to be transferred, so to move up and off the pole, the athlete has to generate that same energy in a different way (pulling in your case).

I agree. :yes:

But I don't think the vaulter has to fly off the top of the pole for the drill to be useful. The purpose of drills are to focus on only one aspect of the vault, and in this case it's the pulling or swinging action (the topic of this debate). So I think as long as you can start the swinging action (by pulling or kicking, for example), then the drill has value.

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:32 pm

Branko720 wrote:I don't understand the above comments. If you can't make it into the pit with a "long sweep leg" and disregarding the pull, what does that say about your "long sweep leg?"

Bringing both legs in aids in the rotation to inversion. It is effective with a low grip. If you plan on training vaulters to pr at 11' you may be content with the drill.
Try having your vaulters pull their legs in on the high bar and swing to inversion. Then have them use a long sweep leg.

The pulling zero drill with the short pulled in sweep leg serves little use. This thread belongs in the "Beginner column".

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:59 am

This thread belongs in the "Beginner column".


That seems monumentally insulting to a an excellent coach who has coached multiple national champions.

In case anyone is confused by the topic title, this isn't a solicitation for advice, but rather a discussion about the merits of pulling during the pole vault. No one is interested in personal opinion being stated as fact (i.e. "clearly doing x is correct"), but rather the explanations of why each of us use certain technical models and coaching techniques. Little will be gained from coming to this discussion without an open mind and a willingness to consider a different perspective.

A large majority of PvP users did not (and some still don't) feel that the Petrov model, and in particular the free takeoff, was superior to other techniques, however those who made the leap of faith necessary to incorporate the Petrov model have done so with great success.

Branko was a very successful coach and a staunch supporter of the Petrov model. When presented with information (6.40 model) that challenged is view of the vault it would have been far easier and far less risky to dismiss them. He instead chose to adopt a new technical model, even though his current model was successful, because he was open minded and felt that this new technique was superior. He saw immediate improvements and even his top vaulters saw large improvements.

Be open minded, there are a lot of opinions on this board and they can't all be right.
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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:28 am

IAmTheWalrus wrote: This thread belongs in the "Beginner column".

That seems monumentally insulting to a an excellent coach who has coached multiple national champions.


Branko720 wrote:I don't understand the above comments. If you can't make it into the pit with a "long sweep leg" and disregarding the pull, what does that say about your "long sweep leg?"


Sorry if I it was taken as an insult. Is Branko trying to be funny in regards to the long sweep leg? I don't understand the above comments either then. I would like to know the benefits of the zero drill using a two arm pull and immediately tucking both legs.

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby KirkB » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:45 pm

IAmTheWalrus wrote:
This thread belongs in the "Beginner column".


That seems monumentally insulting to a an excellent coach who has coached multiple national champions.

In case anyone is confused by the topic title, this isn't a solicitation for advice, but rather a discussion about the merits of pulling during the pole vault. No one is interested in personal opinion being stated as fact (i.e. "clearly doing x is correct"), but rather the explanations of why each of us use certain technical models and coaching techniques. Little will be gained from coming to this discussion without an open mind and a willingness to consider a different perspective.

Wally, I don't see why you're so defensive of Branko's intent behind this thread. Personally, I was quite confused by what his point was, and have said so. I'm looking forward to the new vids to understand his POV better. He also asked what drills anyone recommended, and I answered that.

Like Grandevaulter, I too think that the zero steps drill with a short grip is useless, and I have tried (twice) to explain why. My comments should be taken at face value - NOT as a personal insult to Branko. I have followed his career (via PVP) and have admired what he's done. :yes:

I'm sorry, but the first vid (zero step drill) did not help ME to understand anything about "to pull or not to pull". The implied intent of showing that vid was lost on me. Somehow, that drill was apparently intended to prove that "pulling is good", but I'm at a loss to understand this correlation. I'm still all ears.

I was actually quite surprised at your mention that instead of doing a pullover or shoot-to-a-handstand from a standing start or kip, you should do it from a full sprint. You were obviously joking (I know that because I know you know better - I've followed your career too!), but you did not provide any clues that you were joking. :confused:

What is wrong with an open discussion about an important topic like this? Why take offense when no PERSONAL offense was intended?

Wally, you and Branko have been posting for years, as have the rest of us on this thread.

Let's get past the FALSE INTERPRETATION of posts as insults or as advice when no advice was asked for, so that we can discuss the TOPIC without personal bickering.

If only we all said what we meant, and meant what we said. [sigh]

I especially liked Tim's post. :yes:

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby Branko720 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:20 am

I am not done with the videos yet, sorry. I hope to get them posted by next week. I just want to make it clear I did pose questions and have yet to get responses to some of them. I did ask originally, what do the arms do? Clearly i believe they should pull. And if anyone disagrees that is fine but most have not described what they believe the role of the arms should be, instead we get descriptions of the swing. I don't disagree that the swing aids in inversion, but you cannot tell me that the legs get you upside down and throw you 4' above your grip without the arms doing something. I wasn't joking or being sarcastic with any of my posts, and I think Iamthewalrus is pointing out that most of what I posted has been ripped apart and there has been little information as to why. There are claims that the swing is the most efficient way to transfer your runway speed to the vault? Please explain. That is a lofty claim, that cannot be stated without explanation or proof. Besides my explanations, the videos I have posted thus far are examples of athletes doing what I prescribe. I have also asked, if there is something better, what should my athlete be jumping. She grips 11'9" and pushes 12" above her grip to clear 12'1 1/2". If she were to do something else, what predictions would you have for grip, push, and pr? And explain why. Also if you do coach, or jump please show some video evidence of yours. That too might be helpful. Thanks!

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:53 am

I don't see why you're so defensive of Branko's intent behind this thread


I'm defensive of Branko because he is a friend, I respect him, and I think he deserves respect from others as well. He has no "agenda," and is not trying to invent his own technical model, provide bogus science to attack someone else's model, or claim that he was "jumping like Bubka before Bubka." I think it is very telling and important the Branko listens to other coaches, and is always looking to improve his coaching technique and technical model. He doesn't view new ideas as a threat, as many coaches do, but as an opportunity to improve as a coach. The switch from the Petrov model to the 6.40 model was dramatic, but so were the results. As a coach and athlete it is difficult to describe how impressive it is for a coach and all his athletes to switch technical models. There are many, many great coaches on this board. Imagine if a great coach like Morry threw out his old technical model and started using something else entirely. He's a fantastic coach with nothing to prove, it's crazy, and risky. Branko did this and it worked! I think it is very important and progressive within the pole vault for coaches to move to new technical models they that feel are superior. Many of us did that for the Petrov model. Perhaps we should again.

Moving on...

Like Grandevaulter, I too think that the zero steps drill with a short grip is useless


I'll let Branko explain this one. I have some thoughts, but I don't want to speak for him (especially after speaking at length about him haha). This isn't my drill.

I was actually quite surprised at your mention that instead of doing a pullover or shoot-to-a-handstand from a standing start or kip, you should do it from a full sprint. You were obviously joking (I know that because I know you know better - I've followed your career too!), but you did not provide any clues that you were joking. :confused:


It was a little bit of argumentum ad absurdum. You had made the comment that the dead hang shoot to handstand closely emulates the vault, and then from that statement implies that the swing needed to be initiated by the arms. I was attempting to make the counterpoint that because the vaulter running at full speed does not need to overcome inertia (to the same extent as one who is just hanging) initiating the movement with the arms will have a much more profound effect than if the vaulter was stationary. I also feel (though I did not say this) that a vaulter who does not utilize the arms, but instead only swings hard with the leg(s), will have a "disjointed" swing, where their hips break far too early in the vault.

These are admittedly not great points, and do not add to the discussion (they probably add to the confusion around the 0 step drill).

Either way, I'm not recommending a sprinting shoot to handstand. Having never done any shoot to handstand I don't feel comfortable suggesting any variants of it. I'm not really sure what is possible / safe.

What is wrong with an open discussion about an important topic like this?


Nothing! That's what I'm looking for. There has been some good discussion already, and I'm sure there will be more. Let's keep discussing and not dismissing ideas (I'm not saying anyone is doing that, just being preemptive). I think there is a lot to be learned from this topic. I'll chime in when I can with what info I have, but Branko, vaultman, and Agapit are going to be your real experts on this one.

P.S. Did anyone check out the videos I posted earlier? What are your feelings of those videos in regards to the pull?
-Nick

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby grandevaulter » Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:16 am

IAmTheWalrus wrote: The switch from the Petrov model to the 6.40 model was dramatic, but so were the results

Stop trolling and get on with it. If the drills and videos are superior as you are eluding to, put it together. Why ask others opinions?

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:38 am

How am I trolling? This isn't my thread and I don't want it to be. I was responding to Kirk and why I originally took offense to your comments about Branko. You responded that you meant know offense. As far as I'm concerned we're cool.

If you're looking for me to expound on why I pull and advocate it's teaching, I can do that:

1) It allows the vaulter to add additional energy to the vault through muscular work (I don't think that aspect is debatable), without sacrificing energy from the run, bend, swing, etc. (I think that is where people have the most contention due to the belief that pulling "unbends" the pole or that pushing "holds the bend" or "increases the bend"). I do not feel that pulling impacts the bend of the pole in a significantly negative way, primarily due to the fact that the pole is compressing (and continuing to compress) under energy several orders of magnitude greater than what can be produced with a single arm.

2) It moves the point of rotation closer to the shoulder as opposed to the hips.

3) It speeds up the swing, which is critical given that the vault occurs over a finite time (~1.5s)

4) It's easier to coach and learn. Even if I didn't think that pulling was the best thing to do, it is still much simpler to coach this model, it's more intuitive, athletes get better feedback, and if it does turn out to be less ideal than some other method, it isn't by much. With 4 years to coach an athlete in high school or college, I would certainly rather work with a simpler model that is as effective (maybe better, maybe worse, I don't even care right now) as the petrov model.

It certainly worked for me. It worked for my athletes when I coached, and it appears to be working great for Branko.

"Stop trolling??" What do you want from me? Are you telling me to go out and grab someone and make the a world record holder?? That's ridiculous! Just because I'm passionate about the pole vault and like to talk about it, doesn't mean I know everything, or am myself an amazing coach. I know a lot, and I wasn't a bad vaulter, but this isn't my life. If you don't agree with what Branko was saying or what I've said that's fine, and I don't care. You don't have to agree. I'm not trying to propose a PVDaddy'esque technical model here, and I'm not looking to bash any other model. Branko opened the floor for debate about the pull, and I hopped in the conversation, mostly to just suggest that people be open minded, but I know that is a tall order on this site.

If you don't like the thread, don't read it. If you're looking for someone to explain pole vault technique to you, there are plenty of forum posts on that. If you're looking for detailed descriptions of the 6.40 model, read Agapit's threads, if you're looking for video of people attempting the 6.40 model, watch LoJo, Blankenship, Apex Vaulting videos, or the videos I posted (although I am the worst representation of the model).

This is a discussion board people. Go ahead and discuss!
-Nick

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:06 pm

Wally and Branko,

I'm not going to point/counter-point all of your comments. I'll just say this ...

I love the passion that you both have! :yes:

And I love that you're trying to discuss a topic (to pull or not to pull) that we've failed to resolve in past years.

The intent of my posts on this thread was twofold: (1) to try to understand the question(s) that you were getting at, Branko; and (2) to answer your question re what are some good, relevant drills.

I didn't understand your initial post from your combination of post title, body, and attached vids. It was very confusing to me. I think I now know what you were asking, but you should not ASSUME that people understand your questions or inferences when they're so disjointed.

And that first vid still has me confused. It's such a "Beginner's" drill, that I failed (and still fail) to understand its context within the scope of the Advanced subject matter of this thread. I'm willing to wait for your new vids - I'm in no rush.

Honestly Wally (I hope you don't mind the nickname that I use for you, Nick), I don't think "trolling" is the right word, but I do question why you're so critical of others on this thread, when you drop bombs like 'claim that he was "jumping like Bubka before Bubka"'. I take that as a personal insult, as you're clearly attacking me for no particular reason (other than maybe you don't believe my claims (when I first joined PVP about a decade ago), or maybe you have no respect for my technical opinions)? So don't tell me or Grandevaulter to clean up our act, especially if you're going to bring up any old issues that you may have with me - totally unrelated to this thread! :no:

You know my history, and if you want to discuss it in public, then by all means open a new thread and I will reply in an open and honest manner. Or if you prefer IM, then I'm open to that too. But please stop the put-downs and innuendos - if your aim is to help Branko clarify his intent in opening this thread, then please stick to the topic!

Even if YOU don't agree with my ideas, I believe I have SOME credibility on PVP with SOME coaches and athletes, and I don't appreciate you flaming me just because I'm asking Branko to clarify his questions, or just because I don't think his zero step drill is a good one.

I was doubtful that this thread would get us to a better, common understanding of "to pull or not to pull", and (other than Tim's post), it now looks like just another one of those threads that gets nowhere near even UNDERSTANDING what a pull is and is not, due to all this bull*&%^!

Agapit's threads on this topic (a few years back) failed, as he was unable to articulate what he meant by a "pull".

If you can do this, Branko, then kudos to you. But so far, I'm just as baffled about the topic as I ever was. :confused:

Wally, I did NOT refer to doing a pullover or shoot-to-a-handstand from a DEAD HANG. I only referred to doing it from a standing start or kip/cast-off. Since you're not familiar with these drills, there's no point in you discussing them. Or if you're going to discuss them anyway (by saying you should do them from a full sprint to simulate a vault more closely), then at least give us a clue that you're not serious.

As I said in my last post, I wish people would say what they mean, and mean what they say. [sigh]

Enough!

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Re: Should you pull at take off?

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:59 pm

Honestly Wally (I hope you don't mind the nickname that I use for you, Nick), I don't think "trolling" is the right word, but I do question why you're so critical of others on this thread, when you drop bombs like 'claim that he was "jumping like Bubka before Bubka"'. I take that as a personal insult, as you're clearly attacking me for no particular reason (other than maybe you don't believe my claims (when I first joined PVP about a decade ago), or maybe you have no respect for my technical opinions)? So don't tell me or Grandevaulter to clean up our act, especially if you're going to bring up any old issues that you may have with me - totally unrelated to this thread! :no:


Fair enough. I didn't mean to offend, and I apologize for doing so. You're welcome to PM me anytime if you want to talk about this. I don't have any issues with you but you are welcome to talk to me. I won't apologize for my passion, but that doesn't excuse rudeness.

Wally, I did NOT refer to doing a pullover or shoot-to-a-handstand from a DEAD HANG. I only referred to doing it from a standing start or kip/cast-off. Since you're not familiar with these drills, there's no point in you discussing them. Or if you're going to discuss them anyway (by saying you should do them from a full sprint to simulate a vault more closely), then at least give us a clue that you're not serious.


I misinterpreted your earlier post. Looks like we can put this one to bed.

Any thoughts on the vids I posted or the technical comments I made in my prior post.


Happy Halloween everyone have a good weekend!
-Nick


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