Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

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KirkB
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:58 am

PVDaddy wrote: Altius, why was this not addressed in your original book? Why was not the benefit of re-extending the bottom arm to lower the vaulters COG mentioned? You, Kirk and others claim this to be a pull.

Ahem ...

I am not going to be responding to PVDaddy's ridiculous claims, theories, ideas, or anything else. I no longer have the patience to explain the real world of PV to him. However, I WILL defend myself when he misquotes me.

I have NOT made any claim for 'the benefit of re-extending the bottom arm to lower the vaulters COG'!

And I have NOT claimed this so-called benefit to be a pull.

In fact, in any of my posts where I discussed the 'pull', I have never once mentioned it in the context of 're-extending the bottom arm'.

AND in fact, I have NEVER make any suggestions in any way, shape, or form that re-extending the bottom arm to lower the vaulters COG was even a benefit!

I have been completely mute on this subject, and I will remain mute. I have no intentions of sparring with PVDaddy about this issue.

Speaking of mute, I have him on MUTE, and I intend to keep him on MUTE. The only reason I'm replying in this thread is to defend myself when I'm misquoted.

PVDaddy wrote: ... you two claim I am the one who brings nothing new of value here?

I can't speak for Altius, but yes, that's exactly what I'm claiming. NONE of your ridiculous theories or ideas have any value! New? Yes. Novel? Yes. Of value? No! :no:

If any of them ARE of value, then where's the applause from the PV community for bringing forth these new ideas?

Answer: There HASN'T been any applause, because THE IDEAS HAVE NO VALUE! :dazed:

PVDADDY'S IDEAS ARE JUNK SCIENCE!

In PVDaddy's head, they may seem to have some value, but in the real world, THEY DON'T! :dazed:

Someone needs a reality check here! :idea:

I'm out!

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby altius » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:23 am

Kirk -you appear to be joining pvstudent in chucking pearls into the swine pen. Why do you bother - you know they will simply be vomited back at you with negative interest.

I am just happy to find that pvdaddy appears to have a copy of the dreaded book - but I don't think he is reading it very carefully - in it I simply promoted the straight Petrov line re initiating the inversion - never mentioned a pull. That insight came long after the book was finished -but who cares about the facts -they always get in the way of a good story. ;)
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVstudent » Sun Jun 08, 2014 2:47 am

Clearly I must be living on a planet where "pigs can actually fly of their own accord" were I to believe PVdaddy's latest junk science attempt.

I find it really sad that this correspondent does not have the wit to read what he has written and to realize that it is just trivial tripe!

Just a thought. I always believed a pole was an inanimate object and by possessing mass the only force it could exert was by contact with another object due to its weight! I have seen many pole vaulting poles and I have yet to see one exert a centripetal force of its own accord? But I'm living on a planet called earth and earthbound perhaps that's why?

Second thought, could centrifigal force exist at all if a centripetal force were not acting at a point of application at an axis?

To be positive and attempt yet again to be helpful before the double pendulum challenge to pole vaulters is miscontrued by PVdaddy's "Folk Physics" and ties us in knots with triple pendulums, tap swings, deviation swings or whatever else he conjures up.



I draw readers attention to the double pendulum challenge facing flexible pole vaulters in the diagram below.

Moment of Inertia Changes in Double Pendulum System Defined Pole Vault.jpg
Moment of Inertia Changes in Double Pendulum System Defined Pole Vault.jpg (78.9 KiB) Viewed 7880 times


Careful perusal will show that the problem is an optimisation problem which boils down to how, where, when and by what means the vaulter injects into the total system impulses due to changes in momenta (linear and angular) brought about by the vaulter swinging whilst simultaneously reorienting body segmental arrangement by muscular effort that simultaneously affects TWO Primary axes of ROTATION. Also the optimisation has to take into account length of grip, pole elasticity, placement of the uprights and height of the cross-bar in relation to grip height above the deepest point of the planting box at pole relelease.

Success or failure is the outcome of how well the actions of the vaulter match the challenge for that particular vault with the pole and standards setting actually selected! In practice there is also the element of chance (luck) according to wind direction and strength or other elements beyond the control of the vaulter.

In my opinion the most successful actions by the vaulter are those that minimise wastage of work effort and are timed so that the complexity of the vaulter movements are minimised whilst ensuring continuous exertion of forces and torques to achieve a vaulter COM velocity in the inverted position at pole release to ensure a post release flight trajectory sufficient to legally clear the cross-bar at a particular height setting and placment of the bar support standards.

Enough said I'm with Kirk on this one!
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:10 am

Kirk casting pearls? What pearls? He's a closed minded follower who's critical thinking skills are so limited he can't think his way out of the paper box you and PV student have him caged in Altius. Lavellenie on the other hand though outside of that box and proved that a shorter, slower man can vault higher than the faster taller man with a more efficient swing. The funny thing is I none of you experts have even attempted to address what that is? At least I have. I'm sorry to inform you Altius but very few of those reasons can be found in your book! Oh by the way Kirk you may want to change your signature.
There actually can be a tuck in the vault. The current world record holder does it!
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Wan » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:24 am

Just to feed this conversation, and to understand that RL and his coach d'Encausse are making their jobs in a more empiric way than you seem to think they do...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYR9Rk6djCo

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby altius » Sun Jun 08, 2014 4:17 am

'Lavellenie on the other hand though outside of that box and proved that a shorter, slower man can vault higher than the faster taller man with a more efficient swing.'

I will wait to be proved wrong but I doubt that he did much THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX as his technique evolved!!!

And what makes you certain that he was slower??
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:18 am

Wow PV student what a bunch of pseudoscience and sophisticated crap!
I've decided I'm just Going to cut to the chase for now on and keep it simple stupid!
That should make it a lot easier for others less sophisticated in the sciences to be able to separate the wheat from your chaff.

Just in case anybody has not noticed PV student still has not addressed the current topic of discussion here, what effect does the circular rotation of the pole have on the vaulters swing path? I am not at all surprised he is not addressing this question because he has never addressed this question in his own mind yet!

Just to keep this simple for everyone imagine that the pole could be bent in an L-shaped at a 90° angle.
Now imagine the long leg of the L is in the pit and the vaulter is hanging on to
the short leg of the L. As the long axis of the L spins in a counterclockwise direction the short leg of the L applies a force to the vaulters hands as he is hanging on to the short line of the L ie. his grip on the pole. It's actually a little worse than this evening because as soon as the vaulter leaves the ground the long axis the pole also leans left and immediately begins to change in length and continues this change throughout the duration of the swing.

So as the vaulter is swinging upward it is not hard to imagine that the rotation the l and the changing length of the L is inparting a force on the vaulter hands that is hanging on the pole wich therefore also imparting a force on the direction of the Vaulters swing.
I find it hilarious that PV student cannot recognize this force and the implications that this force Has on the path of the vaulters swing?

I also find it hilarious that he thinks that the only source of energy to cause the pole to rotate in a counterclockwise direction comes from the swing when 80 % of the vaults entire energy comes from the
From the runway and is I'm parted upon the pole during the takeoff!

So it does not take much effort at all to cause the pole to rotate in the early stages of the swing and the effects of this rotation to be evident upon the vaulters swing path as demonstrated by Lavellenie with the twisting of his spine hips and swing leg in a counterclockwise direction as demonstrated at frame 3:19. PV student is so dense oversophisticated and arrogant that he even fails to address the cause of this effect on lavellenies body. I'll keep it simple stupid. its the rotation of the pole.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVstudent » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:39 am

Just a few resources for readers to view with respect to pole vault swing and a rather provocative interview snipet to which Wan refers.
It is obvious PVdaddy has issues to deal with that are beyond the capacity of some of this forum contributors to help him with!

A variety of swing techniques Published on May 13, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ierejDGGwM

Some great pole vault technicians Published on May 13, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_JL-0iNsfg

Steve Hooker Uploaded on Sep 11, 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GMy56bOUyI

Markov 5.95 Published on Aug 14, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFf69dJ-Elo

Larisley Silva Swing Published on Aug 7, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxmhxpvJHqM

Renaud Lavillenie slow motion Published on Aug 6, 2013
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I

Bubka, Gibilisco, Markov, Villenie Published on May 13, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNRNqPeW0qo

Yelena Belyakova Published on May 27, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5uF_Cx__Nk

Renaud early days training with Coach Innocencio Uploaded on Aug 25, 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqv6M8LA4gc

Renaud Interview 2014 also his coach Phillipe D’Encausse at Chula Vista Published on Apr 12, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYR9Rk6djCo

This interview really shows the questioner was ill informed and did not specify where in the vault he suggested Bubka habitually put his head back! I am not at all surprised both Renaud and Phillipe spontaneously broke into laughter at the question as posed.
D’Encausse was quite correct in his response to the question asked. He subtly intimated very quietly (with typical Gaulic understatement) that people copied the wrong thing with respect to pole carriage as being the key to Bubka’s success! He also suggested why everyone could not copy Bubka’s action on the pole successfully.
(This is simply my take on this interview question response).

Renaud slow motion 5.92 side view Uploaded on Jan 18, 2011
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDxK1w07W3E

Renaud Lavillenie Eugene USA 2014 Published on May 31, 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDmbw-YJlE8

There PVdaddy is my response above.

Don't keep on hoisting yourself on your own petard! You are simply showing your ignorance and lack of fundamental knowledge of this event.

I have had enough of your antics and openly declare that you are beyond any constructive help that I can offer!

There goes another thread discussion down the gurgler because you are in need of help. PVP is not a psychiatrists couch! It is not the place to untangle the mysteries of your mind so please, please, seek some professional help.
Every new opinion at its starting, is precisely a minority of one!

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Decamouse » Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:59 am

try again
“what effect does the circular rotation of the pole”
“how can you not see the effect that the centripetal force of the poles rotation”
PVDaddy – I ask you to show me the circular motion – educate me – show me a sequence of photos or figures that show the pole (pole COM since that is where this force would be based upon) rotating in a counterclockwise (right handed vaulter) direction – not moving to the side and ending in the corner of the back of the box and the left side wall. The COM of the pole has to rotate in a circular motion about some point on the poles chord or vaulters attachment to impart the centripetal force you are alluding to.
Since the mass of the pole is very small relative to the system it would have less of an affect (pole would be in the 2kg to 2.5kg range) - it would be about the velocity (squared) as it travels this “circular” path – again you say it is traveling a circular path –
Everything needs reference points:
Centerline of runway is x axis
Vertical point from middle of the back of box (going straight up) is the y axis
Back of box horizontal perpendicular to the x axis is the z axis:
The vaulters COM travels primarily in the xy plane, this is if the vaulter that lands straight in the pit on the x axis. We are not looking at what variations cause a deviation from this.
Since the COM of the pole and the radius ( we are talking centripetal force and for it to be circular by definition this distance r (radius) would need to be constant) about which the pole COM is traveling relative to the point the centripetal force is applied – we need to examine if this really happens.
Lets assume the pole COM is at the midpoint of the pole (usually at some point below this) – when the vaulter initially takes off it is moving forward in the xy plane – the force has to be applied at the top hand or some point in the handgrip region depending on bottom hand interaction– but that is not the critical point for this example – just the general location. The pole COM will move towards the YZ plane in an upward sloping path and as the pole “turns” to the side the COM will move in the Z direction. Max bend - see photo below
JeffHartwig560xx72%.jpg
JeffHartwig560xx72%.jpg (29.51 KiB) Viewed 7864 times

It is clear that the COM of the pole is closer to the YZ plane than the vaulters attachment to the pole and this is point the radius of the circular path would be based upon. At this point in the vault the pole typically ends up in the left corner of the box (see photo) – at this point the pole COM is moving back towards the xy plane in a slightly upward path (pole is unbending) – the vaulters attachment point (center of the radius if there were a circular movement) is moving up (y) at a steeper rate and slightly forward in the x direction.
Hooker pole COM3.jpg
Hooker pole COM3.jpg (4.38 KiB) Viewed 7864 times


So you even mention in you "L" example the fact it is changing -- now the pole COM is moving upward throughout the vault - moves in the XY plan at the start then has some positive z axis movement (positive being to right) as the pole is unbending it is moving back towards the XY plane or a direction change.

So where in the vault is there this circular motion that imparts this centripetal force --

Video can be deceiving since it is rarely at correct angle -- USA Track and Field actually had Peter McGinnis doing some videoing and study with various axis of recording so they could accurately record the vault -- there is a reason for the chord lines on the building and camera location showing the max bend -- so does 3:19 show the pole turning as I described above - the circle motion required for the centripetal force you speak off - the radius is changing, the direction changes, the relative displacement of the COM to the point it is to act upon changes --

I will agree that I do not see it the same way you do --
Plant like crap sometimes ok most times

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby altius » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:10 am

Once more into the breach dear friends --- once more...........!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:09 pm

And I suppose if we just imagine that the poles rotation has no effect on the vaulters swing path that it will just disappear?
After all, it worked ignoring that effect for the past 20 years for the great thinking minds of the pole vault experts and Bubka!
Until a shorter, slower, Frenchman named Lavellenie came along and Incorporated his entire swing to take full physical advantage of it.
But evidently that's only the opinion of a one eyed Lunatic and as PVstudent says: Every new opinion at its starting, is precisely a minority of one!
My Grandpa always said: In the land of the blind, the one eyed Giant is King!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Jun 08, 2014 6:43 pm

Decamouse, Examine the cap end of the pole. The end with the hole. Throughout Lavellenies WR vault, during pole support. Where is it going? What direction? Do you think the Butt end of the pole is rotating in the box? How much? If the butt end rotates 4 inches, how far does the cap end were Lavellenie is gripping rotate? Does this have a physical effect on the vaulter and his swing path? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I


Now examine Bubka's cap end were he grips. Does it rotate as much as Lavellenies does? If not, why do you suppose that is? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98


Is it possible Bubka is fighting the resistance of the poles rotation more with his swing and Lavellenie has found a way to swing with it?

Oh thats right, I'm just seeing thing again, as I'm delusional! That point would never be worth exploring!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.


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