Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVstudent » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:01 am

PVdaddy you are seriously out of your depth!

Your ability to completely confuse, misperceive, misinterpret, and project a completely false set of claims as to your genius in pole vault technique analysis is indeed unique. You are a menace to every thread on this public forum in your mistaken belief you can make a constructive contribution.

For those contributors who have made well considered input of useful information and or thoughtfully raised legitimate questions pertinent to the subject matter I apologise for having to withdraw at this stage.

PVdaddy has yet again fowled the topic to the point where it wasteful of time and energy trying to be rational and objective in the discussion.

You win PVdaddy ignorance is indeed bliss!

Your discussion simply demonstrates that your persistent promulgation of idiosyncratic ideas so much at variance with, knowledgeable PVP contributors, science (mechanics), motion analysis, and accumulated coaching expertise from across the globe when combined with your total insensitivity to advice to tone down your belligerent confrontational attitude, continues to alienate me from any desire to continue discussion of this thread's subject matter.

I remind you of your promise to stay off this section of PVP. Being very honest with you I strongly recommend you comply with that promise.

Should you not heed my advice, then to earn the attention and respect from PVP readers your communications demonstrate you crave, could your next communication in the Advanced Section of PVP power be preceded by:

1. Verifiable evidence of your attendance at a Coach Accreditation Course and Certificate of Coaching Qualification in track and field athletics, with particularly clear evidence at what level you have been accredited to coach pole vault.

2. Post references to video tapes of yourself in action coaching pole vault made available to PVP readers via the internet.

3. Post internet video references to the performances of athletes in pole vault participating in sanctioned athletics competition meets. For these vaulters you should be able produce incontrovertible evidence that they are all athletes for whom you have personal coaching responsibility.

4. Post any other evidence you see as supporting your capacity to contribute on this topic in particular, but not without items 1 - 3 being delivered first!

When you comply with these conditions (1-4) I will be willing and able to re enter the discussion. By complying you will help other PVdaddy SKEPTICS to actually give you some benefit of their doubts and encourage them to make the effort to actually read your material.

Until then no more from me on this topic in this thread.

My sincere apologies to all concerned. I have found this thread of interest and it did force me to share some data and visual evidence to attempt to bring some objectivity to the discussion.

I hope you found the material and data, based on reputable peer reviewed papers by qualified scientists, of value and helped you raise questions as to the reliability and validity of the premises which Willriefer used to compare relative efficiency of the vaulters he nominated.
Every new opinion at its starting, is precisely a minority of one!

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:22 am

PVstudent:

From the moment the right handed vaulter leaves the runway the pole immediately begins to lean to, bend to and then rotate to the left!
All of this and the centripetal motion of the poles rotation has an effect on the vaulters swing path in that it causes it to leave the perpendicular line of the runway and be directed left! :idea:


This is the subject of current discussion/argument. State now your professional viewpoint, whether or not you agree, and explain your reasons? Place your viewpoint on record.

You also have NOT had any success at demonstrating that Lavellenies is not more efficient then Bubka's at all.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Decamouse » Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:14 am

If it was possible to answer then you should be able to answer why it is more efficient and prove it - not simply because you said so - or even he cleared a WR -- bar clearance efficiency? I have not see a conclusive hgt of COM at end of vault -- Then this would need to be done on numerous vaults by SB and RL -- with accurate takeoff speeds, measured mass at that meet and recorded max raising of COM -- since there has been some research indicating SB has had his COM much higher than WR -- what does that prove. PVDaddy - convert me -- prove what you say is true - unless you know all the variables it is an estimate and more likely an opinion.

Centripetal motion - or circular motion and result centripetal force - plus it is not truly a circular motion - note: if you try to keep pole aligned down the center it will hit the back of the box and impede the bend and you forward movement. Since a Right hand vaulter could never have it rotate to the right because he could never swing (he/she would have a cross armed configuration) - the natural movement is have it move left which also allows a larger bend before the side wall of the box/box collar/pit starts to inhibit the bend

This is not something RL suddenly developed or master better than anyone else - unless you can show me that for the given energy input he did get his COM higher -- prove this and then your claims hold water. As far as steering and that whole line -- wonder what the look on RL and or his coach's face would be if they were ask about this
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:36 am

Decamouse, I'm not going to educate you any more. Your ungratefulness and complete disrespect has become to overbearing. Pearls before swine.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Decamouse » Fri Jun 06, 2014 1:26 pm

Guess I will really never know what "Counter side swing -- counter thrust bend" really are - I have never claimed to set the pole vault world on fire as far a coaching goes - never claimed these type revelations that you PVDaddy have -- I can even live with the you not educating me. All I ask was "you" prove what you ask other to do. No more -- I will listen to the Rippon's, and Greg Hull's of the world. I will even sit down with you if we every meet. I will be at the UK-USA Master Deca Challenge in Neosho, Missouri July5-6 - stop in.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:26 pm

Decamouse-
sorry - again never heard anyone else discuss it or even mention it


That the leaning, bending, rotating pole applies a centripetal force on the vaulters body and effects the vaulters swing path, directing it to the left or right (depending on what hand you are?) off of perpendicular from the runway, has not been mentioned here on PVP as far as I know? In fact the opposite has been stated, that it has NO effect and I believe this is incorrect!

That's why I mentioned it! :idea:

The purpose of the pole vault advanced technique section should be to expand our knowledge base by examining new thoughts and ideas.

There have been a few new things I have mentioned here, or at least brought greater focus to, but, that does not mean it is incorrect, unimportant and/or should not be examined.
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby vault3rb0y » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:53 am

The pole does not apply a centripetal force to the vaulter. In order to do that, the pole would have to apply a force toward the COM of the vaulter as the vaulter rotates.

For non-circular orbits or trajectories, only the component of force directed orthogonally to the path (toward the center of the osculating circle) is termed centripetal; the remaining component acts to speed up or slow down the satellite in its orbit. For an object swinging around on the end of a rope in a horizontal plane, the centripetal force on the object is supplied by the tension of the rope. For a spinning object, internal tensile stress provides the centripetal forces that make the parts of the object trace out circular motions.

Johnnie T. Dennis (2003). The Complete Idiot's Guide to Physics. Alpha Books. p. 91. ISBN 978-1-59257-081-2.


Centripetal force would have to come from the already-rotating vaulter, and would only serve to keep the limbs from flying away from the COM of the vaulter! The pole may serve to push against the hands and cause the vaulter to BEGIN rotating, but that type of force has a different definition:

Torque, moment or moment of force, is the tendency of a force to rotate an object about an axis, fulcrum, or pivot.

Serway, R. A. and Jewett, Jr. J. W. (2003). Physics for Scientists and Engineers. 6th Ed. Brooks Cole. ISBN 0-534-40842-7.



Now that our definitions are correct, we can explore your statement. I agree that the pole applying a torque on the vaulter can cause the swing to go to the left or the right, but as long as the vaulter follows the sagittal plane during his take off (ie. does not JUMP to the left or right), and keeps the top hand in line with their COM, they will continue straight forward toward the pad. It does not matter if the pole bend moves to the left or the right, as long as the application of their force through their hands is in the sagittal line with their COM. It also does not matter if their inversion is angled slightly to the left/right, as long as the application of their inversion is through their hands, and their hands (again) stay centered in the sagittal plane with their COM.

If these conditions aren't met, you'll usually see the athlete flagging to the left or the right.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:57 am

Vualt3rboy: I will think about what you are saying. In the mean while, would you please explain the source of the force that directs (twist ) Lavellenies spine to the left and his swing foot tp the right starting at Frame 3:19 ? Why does he have to make a conscious effort to redirect the path of his swing afterward?
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 10:00 am

Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby Wan » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:42 am

PVDaddy wrote:Starting at Frame 3:19 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I

Even if I watch pole vaulters since 35 years now, I actually and exactly don't know how to technicaly pass 6.16 m with a pole... but I know that to begin a video on YouTube at the moment you want just add #t=XmXs to the end of your link (where Xm = "X minutes" and Xs = "X seconds"). ;)
For example here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I#t=3m19s
Sorry if it's the only way I found to be usefull here... :confused:

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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:58 am

Vault3rboy:
The pole does not apply a centripetal force to the vaulter.
In order to do that, the pole would have to apply a force toward the COM of the vaulter as the vaulter rotates.

You need to know your facts before correcting somone. Were did you get COM from definition of centripetal force. By definition the force is directed toward the fixed point of the instantaneous center of curvature of the path NOT COG?


Vault3boy:
The pole may serve to push against the hands and cause the vaulter to BEGIN rotating, but that type of force has a different definition:

No the pole is rotating in a circular motion and my use of centripital force is the best choice for describing this force.

I agree that the pole applying a torque on the vaulter can cause the swing to go to the left or the right,
:yes:

Your getting there.


but as long as the vaulter follows the sagittal plane during his take off (ie. does not JUMP to the left or right), and keeps the top hand in line with their COM, they will continue straight forward toward the pad. It does not matter if the pole bend moves to the left or the right, as long as the application of their force through their hands is in the sagittal line with their COM. It also does not matter if their inversion is angled slightly to the left/right, as long as the application of their inversion is through their hands, and their hands (again) stay centered in the sagittal plane with their COM.

Yes it does matter. Executing the proper angle of the swing in relationship to the poles bend and gravity has a major effect on the efficiency of the swing and the amount of energy stored and later recieved from the pole. I would also point out that the angle of inversion in relationship to the vertical has an effect on clearance height.
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Re: Swing Efficiency Comparison: Bubka, Tradenkov, Lavillenie

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Jun 07, 2014 12:12 pm

Yes Wan you have captured that moment for me. Thank You.
Decamouse, how can you not see the effect that the centripetal force of the poles rotation is having on Lavellenies swing path here? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtZH3Q19w4I#t=3m19s
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