GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

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Tim McMichael
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:04 pm

Agreed. But it would also have been counter-productive to leave their lead knee up, because their poles didn't sink/bend to give them the time and space to invert with a shorter chord. Agree?


The length of the chord for a fiberglass vaulter isn't much different from maximum grip for a stiff pole vaulter. In order to get the pole to rotate to vertical you have to shorten the chord to what would have been your maximum grip if you had to stiff pole. The highest grip ever used in the metal pole days was by my old coach at OU, J.D. Martin. He gripped 13'10." Bubka's minimum chord length was........(drum roll)......13'10". In the fiberglass era, shorter vaulters have a chance to be competitive because we can bend the pole more to get down to the shorter chord length that we have to roll over. Because we are shorter, we can stay behind the pole longer and then still catch up to it.

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Nov 02, 2015 11:10 pm

13'10" / 13'10" ... interesting!

Full agreement here.

And I would add that if your old Coach Martin was using fiber, he could probably grip higher than the 13'10" chord - 17+ something (compared to Bubka's 13'10"chord) because fiberglass poles are so forgiving. That is, you can go full-speed into the takeoff (almost) with top arm fully extended (almost); whereas stiff pole vaulters needed to keep their arms bent a bit more, to absorb the shock/impact (and the change of direction) of the takeoff.

Fiberglass is also so much more forgiving if you're out or under; whereas I wouldn't want to be out or under with steel (or there goes your shoulder).

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:43 am

Fiberglass is also so much more forgiving if you're out or under; whereas I wouldn't want to be out or under with steel (or there goes your shoulder).


Without a doubt. Coach Martin used to tell me that the vast majority of the early fiberglass vaulters were nowhere near as skilled as the best of the stiff pole era. He saw that we could get away with murder at the takeoff. He also noticed that the best of the emerging Eastern European vaulters were much closer to doing what he did, especially when it came to where they took off. Did you notice how beautiful the run of the young man in the video was? An ugly, off balance approach in those days would never work at all.

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby grandevaulter » Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:24 pm

Doesn't appear to be manipulating anything with the left, starting bent and elbow out and pushing both arms up. He doesn't appear to be dropping the right very much.
https://www.facebook.com/94190594793/vi ... =3&theater
Just curious if Will figured out if Stickman's feet hips reached 180 degrees before his feet.
Last edited by grandevaulter on Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Nov 11, 2015 2:08 pm


However many jumps he took in those 3 hours, that's mighty fine technique re the takeoff/jump-to-the-split! :yes:

Search for "Kirk Bryde Bend jumps split" if you want a definition of "jump-to-the-split".

His knee drive (and trail leg stretch) is very Petrovish!

However, his takeoff is under - not a free takeoff. You can see the pole bend before his takeoff foot leaves the ground.

I wonder if he had any earlier jumps in that training session where he had a free takeoff? :confused: After 3 hours, you would expect his technique to deteriorate.

After his downswing, he does pull himself into an exagerated tuck, which is his usual technique (a far cry from Bubka's straight-legged inversion). But I love his lead knee drive! :heart:

grandevaulter wrote:Doesn't appear to be manipulating anything with the left, starting bent and elbow out and pushing both arms up. He doesn't appear to be dropping the right very much.

Yes, on takeoff his top arm is slightly bent and elbow out. This is good. :yes:

GV, you say he's "pushing both arms up" as if that's a good thing. I prefer that the vaulter push his arms up to get a good, high plant, but after takeoff, it's no longer necessary to continue to push up with the bottom arm. Continuing to push up with the top arm is a GOOD thing; just not the bottom arm.

GV, I don't know if you noticed, but after his initial bent, non-manipulation with the left (bottom arm), he does straighten it out, pushing his body away from the pole.

This is what I consider excessive pressing. But hey, he's the WR holder! :star:

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby grandevaulter » Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:03 am

KirkB wrote:Doesn't appear to be manipulating anything with the left, starting bent and elbow out and pushing both arms up. He doesn't appear to be dropping the right very much.

Yes, on takeoff his top arm is slightly bent and elbow out. This is good.

GV, you say he's "pushing both arms up" as if that's a good thing. I prefer that the vaulter push his arms up to get a good, high plant, but after takeoff, it's no longer necessary to continue to push up with the bottom arm. Continuing to push up with the top arm is a GOOD thing; just not the bottom arm.

GV, I don't know if you noticed, but after his initial bent, non-manipulation with the left (bottom arm), he does straighten it out, pushing his body away from the pole.

This is what I consider excessive pressing. But hey, he's the WR holder!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ABOsQQgdjo

Kirk, Upon further review of PVstudents work on this video, it appears that he is "not" manipulating with the left. As the pole bends away from his bottom grip it gives him more space for the left. I don't really think he is pushing up with the bottom at all, just turning it into a highbar.

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:09 am

Good vids! :yes:
grandevaulter wrote: Upon further review of PVstudents work on this video, it appears that he is "not" manipulating with the left. As the pole bends away from his bottom grip it gives him more space for the left. I don't really think he is pushing up with the bottom at all, just turning it into a highbar.

Hmm ... you can't see what I'm seeing? :confused:

At about frame #233 (0:09 of the vid) at full speed; and again at frame #233 (0:19 of the vid - this time in slo-mo); and again at 2:32 of semi-full motion; and again at 2:41 of full-speed motion, I can see a distinct PRESS (or LOCKING) with the bottom arm.

My frame and vid times are approximate (I could be off by a few) - I'm not able to step through this frame-by-frame. In fact, frame-by-frame wouldn't show the PRESS - you can only see it when you watch a few consecutive frames together in sequence.

Does anyone else see what I'm seeing? :confused:

Of course, this is the age-old dilemma of the interpretation of vault vids:

Is he pressing which causes the pole to bend; or is the pole bending which causes the bottom arm to appear to be pressing? :confused:

This question could be easily answered if he simply told us his intent: Is he INTENTIONALLY pressing; or is he just holding onto the pole, which gives the APPEARANCE of intentionally pressing? :confused:

I think I see him intentionally trying to stay low and back (away from the pole). If he was simply holding onto the pole and it bent away from his bottom arm, then I don't know why he appears to be "locking" his arm or "straight-arming" the pole. He would have no reason to "lock" or "straight-arm" if his only intent was to hold onto the pole. No?

At least that's the way I see it - with my own trained eyes.

Comments?

Kirk
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby grandevaulter » Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:49 pm

KirkB wrote:He would have no reason to "lock" or "straight-arm" if his only intent was to hold onto the pole. No?

Would he bend or pull with the left arm if he was swinging on a high bar? He is getting as long as he can. This comes back to my discussion with Will, just because a jumper measures 5'7" doesn't mean that with the reach of his arms that he is not as tall as a jumper that is 5' 10".

We may see what we want to see in these vids regarding whether the pole is bending away and making room for him to extend his arm. (my version) Or a left lock pushing the pole away as you may see it.

I'll send Renaud a facebook message and see what he says.

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby grandevaulter » Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:45 pm

Messages sent, I should be getting a response from Renaud any moment. ;)

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Wed Jan 06, 2016 3:15 pm

Philosophy of Argument

In that the nature of this argument is at best ill defined and subject to the whims of whoever is posting, I'm going to try and define it once again. This will not be much about coaching or physics, but the nature of the discussion at hand.

In Defense of the Petrov Method

I should point out that there has never, never been put forth any sort of idea by me that 1) the Petrov method doesn't work 2) that one shouldn't use it. Why? Because it works. In this, it has established pragmatic value. In fact I have advocated its use. As for one, because as Tim points out, its easier, and then for a variety of reasons safer. It has earned this pragmatic value by the results. A long list of world records, Olympic golds, WC champions and medal earners. It works. In part then when "coaching" comes up in these discussions, it doesn't mean a lot to me for when we are talking about physics we are only very tangentially and tenuously talking about "coaching". As before, one can be a good to great pole vault coach, and know little to nothing about physics.

The Value of Science

Science, the scientific method, and the use of data and math have their own history of pragmatic value. It works. That history is longer and less in doubt than speculation on the methodology of the pole vault.

The Nomenclature

When one is coaching the vault one need not, and in fact very often needs to avoid the use of scientific nomenclature. Science speaks little of intent. What it does do however is describe and predict the action of physical systems. Thus if you are going to describe how the vault works (and this is NOT coaching it) you are going to have to use physics, the method of the scientific method, and the nomenclature of science. NOT the vault. All of the pragmatic weight of the success of the Petrov method means NOTHING here except that the coaching works as coaching, not at all relevant to having any ability to describe the system. This is why the continual push that in "describing" the system one should use "pole vault" terms is flawed, off base, and purely political as an attempt to square the dialog in a certain camp. No. In fact, quite the opposite is true. IF one wants to work on describing the system scientifically, then one has to use and adhere to the scientific as it has its own pragmatic value in these matters.

So my purpose here has been along this divide. One one side you have the value of the Petrov coaching method, and then from that, from that value there is taken a license to use that value over and above the value science and physics has established. That anything that can be said descriptively is backed up by the performance value. It is not. So there are a long list of problems in this fashion where the "science" put forth is just bad science. Further its put forth that again the performance value finalizes some claims from the PB adherents that it singularly and solely is "scientifically" proven to be the singular best "model" of the vault. This I doubt and that sort of "proof" I have not seen. Not even close. What is often demanded I "prove" is, oddly enough to "prove" that I can have this doubt.

My own knowledge of physics and this system leads to an intuitive guess that it is a problem that has not singular solution but a set of equilibrium points. Or, many solutions. So there would be no "singular model" to find. So it is my exception to such claims. Petrov method? Use it! "Model"? I don't buy it...

Thanks to Tim for bringing his point of view on several of the points I've been working on. With the stiff pole keeping the COM low and on a certain path in time was paramount as the pole did not bend much if at all. The question now arises that since the new pole does bend AND has a compression RATE relative in part to gravity, is this idea more or less important? SO a further question. IF a vaulter can maximize the effect of gravity on compression and thus increase the speed of compression, the rate of energy storage in the pole, the speed of shortening of the chord length, is there not a possible advantage there? Well, the answer is a simple yes with the caveat that the event is full of trade offs.

Whatever might be said of the takeoff, Lavillenie does not swing like the Petrovians. That is visibly evident. Visibly evident that he does not do much of anything to maximize his swing velocity anywhere along the swing. My view is that he keeps the COM under the top hand as much as possible keeping as much gravity compression on the pole as possible. Then, at the point of mid swing when the Petrovians are working to achieve maximum swing velocity he's aggressively pulling himself up UNDER the top hand. There is an action/reaction moment at this time that effects the compression force and thus chord length of the pole, once again keeping it moving forward at a better rate. In as much as you can see the swing force in the pole for Petrovians like Bubka, you can see this "tuck" force for Lavillenie. And so here's the thing. You can't really have it both ways. You cannot have both the high Petrovian swing force and the Lavillenie "tuck" force. Which is better? I've seen nothing mathematical or scientific to prove which is better, but I believe Lavillenie's results keep the question in doubt as to the veracity of making such a claim.

My intuition on the subject now is that the Petrov method benefits longer vaulters more, while shorter vaulters find better results with a differing method. Namely one more aligned with the one he and a list of other great shorter vaulters have steered towards. This has to do with the nature of the vaulters anatomy/structure as a "lever" in the vault. That they are going to suffer diminished results if they cock the left arm and allow the system to "free" swing forward at the shoulder, hinging the shoulder. Being a shorter lever, and generally lighter, they "see" a threshold limit in trying to maximize energy in the whip swing while losing compressive force on the pole that steers them toward something more like Dial, Buckingham, Greg Duplantis. Can I prove this? No. But not any worse than there is any scientific proof for the idea that the Petrov model is singularly maximized.

Here I will note Mondo Duplantis set his last age group (17' 4.5" copying RL).

With plant problems...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REQv-p0SHYE

This is notable to me as he can apparently "copy" just about anyone(apparently he can do Huffman's vault). And so IF he is choosing this style perhaps its because he's getting the best results with it. Or, maybe its just what the cool kids are trying at the moment...

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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby willrieffer » Sat Jan 30, 2016 10:47 am

Japanese pole vaulting robot. In preparation they apply differential equation analysis of pole bend and where...

"We focused on the advantage of input bending moment. To compare that we conducted follow experiment. First, we experimentally compared the original buckling model treating C as constant and the Transitional Buckling Model treating C(u) as variable. Second, in Transitional Buckling Model, we experimentally explored the vaulting performance shifting the timing and change rate of the transition of C (u)."

http://www.isi.imi.i.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~fukushima/pub/amam2013.pdf


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