GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

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PVDaddy
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:48 pm

Notice Kirk changed my quote? This is what I said:
I believe lavillenie relaxes his thumb grip with his bottom hand so that it is resting on his fingers. This also lowers his COG some but I believe he dies this mostly to allow for a more free pole rotation.


This is how kirk quoted me:
I believe lavillenie relies on his thumb grip with his bottom hand so that it is resting on his fingers. This also lowers his COG some but ...


Kirk:
More useless speculation. We have already debunked the theory that "free pole rotation" (which PVDaddy thinks means the pole twisting to the corner of the box) is an important aspect of modern fiberglass vaulting. There is no scientific basis for this speculation.


No Kirk not " the pole twisting to the corner of the box" :no: I'm refering to the poles complete roation. Counterclockwise in lavelenies case.

Kirk:
is not an important aspect of modern fiberglass vaulting. There is no scientific basis for this speculation


Prove it!

Kirk:
Even if true, so what? So what if his CoM is lower for a split second? :confused:


In a game of centimeters every bit helps. :no: Again Prove it! kerk!
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:02 pm

and........

Kirk:
PVDaddy wrote:
I believe lavillenie relies (I said relaxes) on his thumb grip with his bottom hand so that it is resting on his fingers. This also lowers his COG some but ...

kirk:
This is pure speculation, and has no scientific basis. Even if true, so what? So what if his CoM is lower for a split second? :confused:
:no:

A split second? How long does the entire pole support take Kirk? What percent of the total pole support time does he relax his bottom hand grip for?
He does it for a reason. Evidently Lavillenie feels it is significant enough to do it know it all!
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:22 am

It's interesting that PVDaddy would accuse me of purposely editing his post in order to change it's meaning. I did nothing of the sort.

I do occasionally fix his typos (so that they're at least readable), but I NEVER change the meaning of his quotes.

For example, I changed "dies" to "does", because
PVDaddy wrote: ... I believe he does this mostly to allow for a more free pole rotation.
makes a lot more sense than
PVDaddy wrote: ... I believe he dies this mostly to allow for a more free pole rotation

The quote that he's accusing me of changing does appear to have been changed from "relies on his thumb grip" to "relaxes his thumb grip", but (to my knowledge) the only way that could happen is if PVDaddy himself changed it. AFTER I quoted him (at about 6:09 PM), but BEFORE I posted my reply at 6:14 PM.

If he had edited it after 6:14, then an audit trail of his edit would have been logged on his post; and if he had edited it before I clicked the QUOTE button, then his edit would have been exactly as I quoted.

I don't mind that he edited his post; that's his prerogative. It didn't make sense the way he first worded it. But even with his most recent edit it still doesn't make much sense.

He must know full well that he edited his own post. Let's move on ...

PVDaddy wrote: No Kirk not " the pole twisting to the corner of the box" :no: I'm refering to the poles complete roation. Counterclockwise in lavelenies case.

Kirk:
is not an important aspect of modern fiberglass vaulting. There is no scientific basis for this speculation


Prove it!

I do not need to prove things that I know have no scientific basis. The way science works is that anyone asserting a theory must prove it by scientific means. That's the way it works.

And what the heck is "roation" anyway. (I dare not edit this to "rotation", for fear of reprisal! And before PVDaddy went on vacation, I believe I already advised him that he's using the word "rotation" in this PV context in the wrong way. However, he continues to flog his dead horse. [sigh])

And what the heck does "complete roation" mean? If we are to interpret him literally, then full rotation means 360 degrees. Clearly, he doesn't mean "complete rotation".

PVDaddy wrote: Kirk:
Even if true, so what? So what if his CoM is lower for a split second? :confused:


In a game of centimeters every bit helps. :no: Again Prove it!

Again, it is PVDaddy's responsibility (not mine) to prove that lowering his CoM BY SOME NOVEL GRIP ON THE POLE is an important (IMPORTANT) aspect of his WR technique.
PVDaddy wrote: ... How long does the entire pole support take Kirk? What percent of the total pole support time does he relax his bottom hand grip for?

Again, these are not questions that I must answer. If he feels that this is a significant aspect of RL's technique, then these are questions that PVDaddy must answer.

And let's be realistic here; let's not grasp at straws. We're looking for significant (SIGNIFICANT) differences between his technique and others (particularly Bubka). Not some trivial detail (that may or may not even exist) that isn't going to boost him more than a few millimeters (if at all).

Other than SB clearing 6.15 in 1992, no one else had EVER cleared any higher than 6.05 until RL cleared 6.16 in 2014. Even RL himself cleared no higher than 6.03 (in 2011) prior to 2014.

So what are the SIGNIFICANT aspects of his technique that have boosted him 11 cm higher than anyone else in the past 22 years? :dazed:

Let's get this thread back on track and answer THAT!

Kirk

p.s. I won't be replying to any more of PVDaddy's posts, unless he flings more false accusations in my direction.
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:38 am

In a good vault, how much does the pole twist to the side of the box?

It will twist approximately 90 degrees until the vaulter passes the chord. This is roughly when his shoulders are squarest to the pit.

At the top edge of the box (about 8" up from the butt), this puts it in the corner of the box.

This is when the vault is most vulnerable to hitting a top edge of the box.

It will twist another 90 degrees or so as the pole unbends and is finally released by the vaulter.

During this phase, there is no longer any fear of it hitting the corner of the box.

There is no hint of any scientific evidence that RL's pole twists any more or any less than any other elite vaulter's pole, or that the way his pole twists (or the way he grips his pole) had any contribution to him becoming the current WR holder.

Kirk
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:13 am

mental disorder
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:31 pm

PVDaddy wrote: mental disorder

I wasn't going to reply to him unless he flung any more false accusations my way. This didn't take long. [sigh]

Wild personal insults seems to be the answer to anyone that doesn't agree with his bunk theories. I guess that applies to EVERYONE else on this thread, as not a single person (not even Will) has bought into his "pole rotation theory".

This is nothing short of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandiose_delusions.

From an earlier post:
PVDaddy wrote: I am still convinced that a rotated pole is easier to invert on, as you are not fighting as much of the poles resistance.

PVDaddy, you may have convinced yourself of this, but you have not convinced anyone else. This is because you just watch vids of RL and (with your limited knowledge of Advanced PV Technique, and no personal experience as an elite coach or elite vaulter) you convince yourself that you see things that aren't there. It's OK to start with a hunch, but then you have to do the real work of proving your hunch scientifically. You have not done this.

So please stop posting on this Advanced Technique forum. You don't know what you're talking about.

Kirk
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:59 pm

Lavillinie has found a superior method of Pole vaulting as compared to the PB method through his low COG take off and swing and the fact that he does a much better job of not fighting the poles elemental rotation (in his case counterclockwise).
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:32 am

Kirk:
The quote that he's accusing me of changing does appear to have been changed from "relies on his thumb grip" to "relaxes his thumb grip", but (to my knowledge) the only way that could happen is if PVDaddy himself changed it. AFTER I quoted him (at about 6:09 PM), but BEFORE I posted my reply at 6:14 PM.



THis is a complete fabricated Lie. I have never edited post after I post them. :mad: I am asking Rainbowgirl to verify this. Kirk you have lied here and you have lied very often about me in the past. That makes you a LIER and everything you say suspect. :devil: :no:
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:35 am

PVDaddy wrote: Kirk you have lied here and you have lied very often about me in the past.

Another false accusation, which I vehemently deny.

I had no reason to change one nonsensical sentence of yours to another nonsensical sentence with a slightly different meaning, and I did not do that. I don't have to edit your posts to discredit you. You do that yourself, each time you post.

I have proven myself as an honest poster here, and I do not plagiarize or take credit for other peoples' work, or suggest outrageous theories on PVP.

Also, I am qualified to post on this forum, and you are not.

PVDaddy, the truth may hurt, but everything that I have ever said about you is true.

I think that you get a kick out of arguing with me, but I don't. I just want you to stop posting on this Advanced Technique forum. So I will now ignore any other false accusations you post here. Readers can judge for themselves who is truthful and who is not.

Now let's get back on topic. Less false accusations and insults, and more science! :idea:

Kirk
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:54 am

Answer to questions re Angle of projection of the Centre of Mass (COM) at take-off for Sergei Bubka and Renaud Lavillenie on 6.00m and 6.01m clearances.

Bubka's angle of projection is approximately 18 degrees to the horizontal whilst Lavillenie's angle of projection I have calculated to be approximately 20 degrees.

I have tried to upload a picture to show the comparison but am receiving the message "Sorry,the board attachment quota has been reached."

I use approximately in my answer because of the uncertainty associated with the measurement based on relatively small image sizes and in Bubka's case slight camera motion at the critical instant of the final toe contact with the runway at take-off.

In Renaud Lavillenie's case the amount of blurring due to the size and quality of the original images made precise location of some of the body segment end points difficult.

The images I wanted to share do show the COM locations for the video images just prior to toe -off, at toe -off, and the frame immediately following toe-off.
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Mar 11, 2015 5:58 pm

PVstudent wrote: Bubka's angle of projection is approximately 18 degrees to the horizontal whilst Lavillenie's angle of projection I have calculated to be approximately 20 degrees.

This is surprising. I would have guessed the opposite.

But I don't doubt your ability to extract as accurate of information as is humanly possible, given the "poor" quality of the vids in the context of this purpose.

Kirk
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Re: GRV: Lavillenie - From Stall Swing to World Record

Unread postby PVstudent » Thu Mar 12, 2015 1:31 am

Bubka’s Centre of Mass (COM) projection angle was calculated by me as being 18.43 degrees and rounded down to 18 degrees.

Renaud Lavillenie’s COM projection angle was 20.16 degrees, +/- standard deviation of measurement of 2.6 degrees. The rounded value for the COM angle of projection for Lavillenie was taken as 20 degrees to the horizontal.

For Renaud Lavillenie’s jump the standard deviation was calculated for seven consecutive frames (3 frames before, the take-off frame, 3 frames post take-off) using COM x,y digitized coordinates with the mean value being defined to occur at the frame closest to take-off (ie Frame 4).

For each subject in the illustration below the middle image is the take-off video image and the other two video images are the video frame immediately before and after the take-off. (My apologies that I cannot present, at the moment, the illustration that summarizes these findings.)

The Bubka images show the body segmental end points used in the determination of the x,y co-ordinates of his COM.

The same process was used for Renaud Lavillenie but for the purposes of clarity only the location of the COM is shown.

As a check on the data calculations I printed the images for each subject and manually measured on these images, to the nearest 0.5 millimeter, the vertical height and horizontal location of the COM with respect to the toe end of the take-off leg foot contact point on the runway in each image. By this method the manually measured angle obtained resulted in a COM projection angle measurement for Renaud Lavillenie of 20.56 degrees.

My uncertainty in the measurement estimates for manual versus digital method is 1.98 % ie about +/- 2.0 % or about 0.4 of a degree.

Hence I am reasonably confident that the COM projection angle for Renaud Lavillenie is within the limits 19.6 to 20.4 degrees using the methods described above.

Someone else may be able to subject the Lavillenie Video to analysis and thereby accept / refute / refine my estimates.

Like Kirk I am somewhat surprised that I obtained an angle of COM projection at take-off for Renaud Lavillenie on this particular jump of about 20 degrees to the horizontal.

This finding again raises some doubt about some assumptions made in regard to the technique Renaud Lavillenie uses in the pole flexing phase of pole support immediately after take-off.

Canag's estimate of 16 to 17 degrees is in agreement with my calculation of 16.4 degrees for the average angle of projection of Renaud Lavillenie's whole body COM for the 5 frames immediately after the take-off (defined as when the toe of the take-off leg has broken contact with the runway).

This suggests that the pole bending resistance has reduced the projection angle as Renaud's COM advances forward and upward simultaneously with respect to both the horizontal and the top grip pivot point on the pole.

The lower arm, whilst it may appear and feel that it is pushing against the resisting pole, is pulling in opposition to the flexing pole as it bends away from the bottom hand grip point in coincident timing with a radially directed forward and downward pulling action by the COM via the top grip arm.

There is consensus that a pull is being directed against the poles resistance via the top grip, the action of the lower arm remains open to further discussion.

Still getting the message "Sorry, the board attachment quota has been reached." and can't upload the images referred to. Apologies to readers.
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