Mid Mark Chart

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
gtc
PV Whiz
Posts: 214
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:41 pm

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby gtc » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:27 am

DJ
I completely agree with you!
And it never ceases to amaze me when I go to meets and look at where various vaulter's mid's are compared
with pole and grip. I used to go to alot of HS meets and observe the insanity and just chalked it up to HS coaching.
As I have observed a few more collegiate competitions and seen the insanity I don't really know what to blame it on.
Very few coaches and I mean very very few use a 6 step check mark and usually if they do they don't know how to properly use it!
It seems like the vogue thing now to do is use a 4 step check for some reason. (I have heard it is so the coach can catch both the mid and the takeoff)
My opinion is the 4 step check doesn't give nearly as much feedback on the entire run as a 6 step would.

Your not alone. They really just don't get it! I have come to that conclusion. They just don't get it!

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:21 pm

Good Morning gtc

The following excerpts from Petrov and Telez’s work gives us the “physics” based foundation as to why the run should be “monitored” form 6 steps out.

Why, as Petrov states, do we need to start from the before the “first step” with a correct grip, proper carry position and proper stance?? Because the “balance” of these will affect the way you run…and the way you run (read what Tellez says about impulse) will effect speed and posture.. if a vaulter is “out” at the mid there will have to be more horizontal “push” for the vaulter to get to a correct takeoff point. Since most (all) vaulters cannot create a longer stride with a shorter impulse they will increase the ground time, over stride, lower the mass, slow down more, because they are reaching and braking..

How critical is a 6 step check mark!!!

By the way I don’t know if I said to you that the vault is 90% run.. I may have.. but that statement actually came many years ago from the first studies Peter McGinnis did.. when he got the results we had a meeting… can’t remember exactly when but everyone looked at and discussed the data… and that is when the determination, after comparing to Bubka that the run is 90% of the vault and that should be our single focus if we wanted to catch up with Bubka and get back on the top as a pole vault nation.. I think that was 30 + years ago. Ask Peter when that first meeting was.

I have attached my Tellez, Petrov and Bubka files… everything relating to pole vaulting can be derived from these papers…

Later

dj


Petrov
The 1st part of the approach takes place on a distance usually covered in 4 to 6 strides; it is here that the athlete lays the foundation of the approach:

1. set up of a single system: vaulter/ pole
2. evolving pattern of the first strides
3. run-up rhythm (acceleration), length and rate of the strides.

Maximum speed, its rationality towards the end of the run-up are established and depend on the correctly performed first strides.
It is necessary to stress here that the position of the pole and the vaulter/pole system influence the length and pace in the beginning of the acceleration.
Low pole carry in the beginning forces the vaulter to make the first strides more rapid which will result in a fast acceleration, rigidity of the movements and tying-up of the muscles.

Excessively high pole carry in the beginning will make the first strides longer and result in the up-and-down swing of the system’s center of gravity, thus also affecting the smoothness of the approach. In the beginning of the first part the vaulter keeps the pole at 65-75 degrees to the horizon, and by the end, with smooth acceleration he will bring it to 50-60 degrees.


Tellez:
impluse
Impulse is not only a term for the foot-ground contact created by each step but also a numeric value defined as force X time. This is the starting point to understanding scientific sprint technique because the impulse is the body’s only interaction with the ground, the one and only interaction, which produces linear movement. Impulse ultimately defines how the body should perform rotary movement (movement of body levers relative to body). Vector calculus defines impulse: each impulse has a direction and magnitude.

Direction is the mixture of horizontal and vertical components, while magnitude is the measure of force. The best sprint technique consists of an ideal ratio between downward push and horizontal push (Fig. 9). This ratio, however, changes throughout the sprint race. Concerning force, of course great force can yield great stride length. However, misapplication of force translates to poor technique and loss of momentum. While the horizontal and vertical components of force within impulse play a role in creating body position, body position is also rotary. The ideal body position is perpendicular to the ground, where neck and head fall naturally in line. Depending on the impulse, the body may lean from the ground, as in the drive phase of sprinting, or remain vertical.


dj

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:10 am

good morning,

as a follow-up to other threads (ie.. Isi was out) that talk about the approach and a "mid"...

First.. pretty much EVERY coach, bigginner to world class, can and has "fixed" the approach of their athlete IF they are to close (in or under)>>> EVERYONE...

BUT it seems NO ONE (a few exception), including the coaches of world class jumpers can or will fix the Approach if the vaulter is "OUT"...

Think about that for a moment>> if the "issue" or athlete "error" is going to be and out, must stretch, slowdown run!!!! ..... Why would you want to ever put the "MID" further out before you have even tested the approach???

This is why changing my chart has no "value"... that is why i do not support a change, i don't even support creating a 4 step mark from my data, or using my data to create something different..

it has nothing to do with ego... it is everything to do with the coach learning to use a check mark (mid) to help them keep the vaulter consistant at the right speed (within a small range of lenght and frequency) for the grip they are holding..

dj

User avatar
KirkB
PV Rock Star
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:19 pm

Makes sense to me. Thanks for clarifying that, DJ. :yes:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

KYLE ELLIS
PV Lover
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:31 am
Expertise: former college vaulter, Current college coach
Lifetime Best: 5.26
Favorite Vaulter: bubka
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:06 pm

This whole thing blows my mind. I understand not wanting to be out as much as I understand not wanting to be under. How is it that some can't understand that a shorter vaulter will have to takeoff further out and plants with less pole angle??
They are going to need more speed to move in that grip from that takeoff!! There fore they need greater stride length and stride frequency = further out mid.
If they used the same mid as the taller person they would have less room= less speed to takeoff further out and move the pole farther than a taller person... Please tell me how that makes any sensE?

If a shorter and taller person grip the same height, both have a mid at 50ft but the shorter vaulter has to takeoff 6 inches further out. This gives the shorter vaulter less room. So if the mid is right for the taller person matching stride length and frequency, then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the shorter vaulter will either have to chop, slow down, or takeoff under????????????????????????????????????????????????????
On a whole new level 6-20-09

User avatar
IAmTheWalrus
PV Pro
Posts: 298
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:31 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, Current College Coach, Aspiring to be Elite Vaulter
Lifetime Best: 5.06m

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:03 pm

the last line from the "the six stride mark" ....these marks may also differ for tall or short vaulters.. is not mine ... the mid and grip are virtually the same, tall or short! you must have the stride length and stride frequency to move a curtain grip to vertical, stride length is created by speed not physical stature, duplantis was hitting the same (within 6") mid as tully when they jumped at 18'8" ... of course Greg's takeoff was out further than mikes because of the reach difference...


From Page 1 of this thread. I think there is always going to be a little variation, just as there is always a little variation from jump to jump. I think the point is that when you are well behind or well in front of the mid DJ calculated, you are setting yourself up for trouble. Also, perhaps Greg's mid should have been back a little further compared to Tully's, but I think DJ is also making the point that it is easier and less harmful for Greg to be inside of what may be his perfect mid and then to chop slightly to takeoff than it is for Tully to be outside his mid and then lengthen his stride or jump from very far outside at takeoff.

From my engineers perspective this boils down to: Yes the mids may very slightly between a tall and short vaulter with the same grip, but it is within an acceptable tolerance such that performance is not adversely effected"

Am I close?
-Nick

User avatar
ladyvolspvcoach
PV Follower
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby ladyvolspvcoach » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:14 pm

Kyle, sticking my neck out here! The chart is based on a 6 foot tall person...male or female doesn't matter..I took a 6 foot guy and had him hold 13 ft. and marked his take off...it fit exactly where the chart said. I then took a 5 foot vaulter and had her hold 13 ft. her take off was (as you suggested) one foot further out. So, at the risk of some objections, there is a chart for each height of vaulter...Kris in Texas uses this knowledge..the danger is as DJ points out, we already have a great number of vaulters overstriding and having difficulties taking off and their coaches think it's the athlete's fault. It;s infinitly better to have them too close and tighten their strides so that they can take off rather than stretching and overstriding...which is the predomanet action on the runway today...

KYLE ELLIS
PV Lover
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:31 am
Expertise: former college vaulter, Current college coach
Lifetime Best: 5.26
Favorite Vaulter: bubka
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:31 pm

We can't use the mindset of oh, same mid two different takeoff spots.... somehow it magically works out... That isn't cutting it with me and it shouldn't be cutting it with DJ. And I know that sex of the vaulter doesn't matter, I have never said anything like that. Also I understand that stride length X stride frequency = speed. And that stride length should be a product of increased stride frequency.

For some reason everyone seems to think I am confused, but I am not. I agree with DJ's priciples that a vaulter needs an X amount of speed to move in a certain grip from a certain takeoff point. Being under or out there has to be a decrease in speed which will decrease pole rotation. All I am suggesting is instead of using grip for DJ's chart, use the takeoff point!!! It has worked for me and everyone I coach with great success. I am very thankful that DJ developed his chart because it has been a crucial coaching tool for me this year!

But what I did is use the takeoff, and said for an athlete to takeoff from x, they need a certain amount of speed. Of course like DJ says stride length should be a product of increased stride frequency. So how I used the chart I made http://polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtop ... 38&t=18961 , is used the takeoff point and went through and added varrying reaches so that people find the column that best fits them. IT'S STILL USING THE SAME DATA and Principles FROM DJ'S CHART!!

What folk on here need to realize is I used the same data from DJ's chart, except for grip I used takeoff point. I compare it to long jump, there is a correlation between speed and how far you jump- pole vault I say there is a correlation between speed and how much you rotate the pole. So the way I use the chart I made is by saying the need to be atleast x far out, and at maximum 6 inches behind that (on smaller poles)... I will go out on a branch and say that if they are on their biggest pole, that they should preferably hit with in a 6 inch zone (3 under to 3 out)....

Like I said I have used the chart that I developed from DJ's with great success. My kids aren't world beater but they run correct and takeoff on.
On a whole new level 6-20-09

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:22 am

Kyle i don't dispute your math.. or the fact that every vaulter, based on physical characteristics will have a “different” mathematical takeoff point to be vertical to the top hand or slightly “out” of that to try and have a “free” takeoff…

The point I’m trying to make is that the “accuracy” is already different on every vault based on several factors..
*speed at the “mid” is one,
*the “correct” run speed and posture TO the “mid” being a second..
*pole drop and posture from the “mid” to takeoff..
*stride frequency from the “mid” to takeoff…
*etc..

What I did with my chart was get the vaulter, any vaulter, as close as you could get to a correct six step “check” mark so the natural “steering” will be less on every vault based on the speed they are running over the last six.. that speed, all things being equal” has a direct correlation to hand grip.

Because speed and stride length is a product of “less ground time” and force at contact.. you need a “piston” action to run correctly and fast.. you can’t and should not over stride.

In the 70’s the main focus (as is today) was at the takeoff.. as a long jumper I found out where I was at six strides out was going to determine where I was at the board not only in accuracy but in posture and position… the less “steering” I did from six in the better my posture, speed and .. Bammm.. ba.bam was from the penultimate.. the longer the jump..

The vaulter has to “feel” the takeoff… I very seldom checked Mike Tully’s actually takeoff point.. I could look and know if he was “under”, planted late, etc.. he could tell me the same after a jump.. I also knew from the 6 step mid if he was going to have a chance to “steer” slightly and have a decent jump…

Yes you can, and maybe you have, create perfect numbers… but in the end it is how the coach and athlete use the numbers.. that makes the difference..

The takeoff “number” is not what is important for consistency, posture, speed.. and having a good jump..

I don’t “micro” manage the “mid” during competition or practice. I can tell you “about” where every vaulter needs to be based on grip/speed.. I check.. get them close.. keep them close.. and start coaching with the “mid” as only one of the things I check to give me the correct feedback on each vault…

I didn’t set the chart up to become a “don’t over stride” monitor.. I used a basic reach height of a 6 foot person because that was somewhere “in between” the high schools of 5’6” to Earl Bell at 6’3”… so I could do the make to get and average takeoff point..

Look in the long jump you don’t have a varying takeoff point.. it’s the board for everyone.. in theory everyone at a curtain speed should have the same “mid” but even in the long jump there has to be a tolerance because of other mechanical technical factors…

Adding another element to the chart really doesn’t get anyone closer to understanding the “whys’ of making adjustments at the takeoff based on a “mid”, if only the “accuracy” at the takeoff is the predominate factor.

I watched two vaulters yesterday.. a 12-6er and a 15-0… the coach is good but doesn’t use a 6 step “mid”.. both boys hit 50, 51,52.. they only went up when they were just inside 50….

There takeoffs were “on” when they went up but they were low at takeoff and over stressing the pole.. going up poles.. as soon as they had an.. ok jump…

How do we teach the correct check, why and the correct run????

Another example.. 18 foot vaulter.. 4.90 grip.. 56 mid and he’s 6-4… his height means that his takeoff would closer than the 13-8 on my chart… so he is over striding.. long slow steps.. a lot of ground time per stride… how do you teach or even get this person to change.. he feels he has to be at 56 to not get jammed under big time… he does not “buy” the concept that a shorter stride with less ground time (higher frequency) would give him a lot more speed and better posture position a the takeoff…

Logically moving him in because of his “reach” should be easy to understand…but since the “mid” in general is not used or understood… even by the best coaches in the world.. not even my chart is having an impact at the Olympic level… where it could be very benificial...

dj

KYLE ELLIS
PV Lover
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:31 am
Expertise: former college vaulter, Current college coach
Lifetime Best: 5.26
Favorite Vaulter: bubka
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:19 pm

Very good post DJ, I read it quickly but I agreed with everything you said. As far as how to correct people who reach I recommend a heavy dose of straight poling, moving the grip as high as possible. Also lots of pole runs on the track, working on running correctly. I think me and you are on the same page there, I remember your emphasis on pole runs. If the vaulter is used to feeling the pole while they are still on the ground there is nothing you can do with that vaulter until that is fixed; mid or not they will takeoff under. They will steer to be a foot and a half, foot, or 6 inches under.... Where ever that comfort zone is.

Lastly what I have noticed with my vaulters is that the first few strides are crucial to the end of the run!! If the pole drops early, they lean forward, carry incorrectly etc. they will tend to overstride and get under.

So I agree there is alot to monitor besides the mid, but you have to have a refrence like you said....I Guess there is not point in arguing if the coach can figure out what best suits their vaulter for their comfort levels and technical levels.. Hopefully perfection is the long term goal! :yes:
On a whole new level 6-20-09

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:59 am

Good morning

What happened to Isinbayeva at the world championships and at indoors happens to ALL vaulters at some point, including the best (Bubka many times, sometimes he was fast enough to speed up.. sometimes the pole was to big and he came down short.... .
.
Unfortunately when it happens a six step “mid” is not being used and the athlete and coach doesn’t know the “why” and what should be changed.

Tim Mack did this along with Jeff, Toby and others in 2000.

What “this” is, is the way they start the run when the pressure is on and the bar goes up..

Well DUH.. you say.. everyone knows you gotten “control” the way you start!!!@#$$#

Wrong… you need to understand the biomechanics, the physics of what needs to happen.

What they do/did is come out of the back with more acceleration (because speed and acceleration have an increment value) BECAUSE they are “fired” up, because they need more speed (or intuitively feel they do) to move the grip or to make the bar and because it is the “natural” and right thing to do.

Please try and understand this guys/gals… we continue to miss this.

What happens is this.. the vaulter has to grip higher to jump higher, or say the vaulter has moved up poles.. Intuitively they have a desire/must need.. to run faster..

GOOD.. but when they do; they take faster, slightly shorter.. more natural, better posture steps .. all good BUT.. because of this they will hit “out” at six steps (just like Isi and tim) with no way, even with more speed at the “mid” to maintain that speed, because of the “must stretch” from the “mid” to takeoff.

So what does the coach do??? He/she tells the athlete to SLOW DOWN THE START!!! You came out TOO fast and didn’t have anything left at the takeoff!!!

Wrong .. wrong ..wrong!!

If Tim had not have moved his steps “forward” in 2004 he would have had the same issues he had in 2000. If Isi/Petrov had of used the 6 step “mid” they would have avoided what happened.

The four doesn’t work as well!! Why??? because you can be out at “6” and stretch “on” at four!! You/your coach might think will I’m on!!

Wrong again… you were physically “on”, but not “ON” because you do not have the speed or posture to have a correct takeoff.

What to do???

Always come “out of the back” naturally, accelerating with the correct pole carry and correct step (no skip).

Why do athletes have step problems as the bar goes up?? Because they are trying to accelerate “naturally” but have the wrong step and have practiced “control” because they don’t understand the “cause”, the “why” they were off.

Petrov continued to coach the plant and free takeoff with Isi.. because she was “stretching’ under and he didn’t know that was the issue.

What I do first is work on this in training.. I set up acceleration patterns that fit the vaulter I’m working with.. I tell them to come out fast (pole runs on the track), time them, watch the posture ..etc.. I find where/how they will come out when the pressure is on, with adrenalin.. when we need the speed for grip, pole size and a record…

Then in competition all I have to do is tell them to “come out of the back”.. or sometimes when I know they will accelerate slightly and I haven’t moved the steps.. I’ll tell them to “push” out of the back.

We need to learn how to use the best ”speed” of the athlete… start using longer runs.. women included.. and coach these vaulters up.. instead of holding them back..

Let them sprint (accelerate) out of the back.. but keep them at the correct 6 step “mid”.. turn them loose and let them jump and PR.

dj

PVstudent
PV Pro
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:53 am
Location: South Australia

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby PVstudent » Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:17 pm

Why do athletes have step problems as the bar goes up?? Because they are trying to accelerate “naturally” but have the wrong step and have practiced “control” because they don’t understand the “cause”, the “why” they were off.

Petrov continued to coach the plant and free takeoff with Isi.. because she was “stretching’ under and he didn’t know that was the issue.



DJ, obviously you visited Petrov whilst he coached Isinbayeva! Presumably you have discussed this matter with Petrov directly and are sure of your assertion "that he didn't know that was the issue."

Having visited Vitaly Petrov in Formia a number of times, observing him coaching, discussing directly with him pole vault technique as well as knowing his proven coaching credentials, I believe the statement you made is quite without foundation.

Your remark, from someone so far as I can ascertain has not had any coaching input to Isinbayeva's performances or discussion with Petrov on the matter, is not only misinformed but mischievous.

Readers of PVP I hope will seriously question your judgement of Petrov as I do.

Ride your Hobby - Horse, but do not in the process denigrate one of the greatest pole vault coaches in the world without first checking your assumptions and presumptions!
Every new opinion at its starting, is precisely a minority of one!


Return to “Pole Vault - Advanced Technique”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests