Mid Mark Chart

This is a forum to discuss advanced pole vaulting techniques. If you are in high school you should probably not be posting or replying to topics here, but do read and learn.
User avatar
rainbowgirl28
I'm in Charge
Posts: 30435
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 1:59 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, I coach and officiate as life allows
Lifetime Best: 11'6"
Gender: Female
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Casey Carrigan
Location: A Temperate Island
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Sun Dec 06, 2009 10:20 pm

jschools wrote:Ok. Today at the workout, I had my polevaulter grip the pole at 12 ft. I asked him if he thought he get that grip into the pit and he said he could and did. So, according to the chart, I set the "Mid" mark at 40 ft and the take off at 9 ft. I did not tell him what I was doing. He ran a 10 step approach. After making a couple of small adjustments to the beginning of the his run, he was dead on at the "Mid" mark, but about 9 inches under at the take off. Here is my question...Do I work with him on shortening his last step at take off or do I move his grip height to match his speed on the runway?

I apologize if this was already discussed in the previous 27 pages. I still haven't had a chance to read all of the yet.

Thanks for your input.



Assuming he is moving the pole into the pit with good pole speed, it's probably an issue of plant mechanics as much as it is run mechanics. If the plant is low/late/too slow the last few steps will stretch and the vaulter will be under.

User avatar
souleman
PV Lover
Posts: 1015
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:56 pm
Lifetime Best: 12-7.5
Favorite Vaulter: Bob Seagren, Bob Richards
Location: Wyoming, Minnesota
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby souleman » Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:40 am

Something you need to do. Have your vaulter grip where he wants to (11 or twelve feet on the pole), put a bar up, and have him start his run where he feels like it. In other words take the numbers out of his jump and just let him jump. Watch his six step mark and his take off mark. If he hit his 40 foot mid gripping at 12' and took off at 8 feet, I'll bet most of his jumps where ever he grips will result in an 8 foot take off. I call that "the happy spot" in the jumpers mind. No one on this forum has ever brought up the kinesthetics of the vault. That's the thing that goes on in the mind that lets you know you are standing up straight, or walking in a straight line. It's what is going on with your eyes, your ears (inner ear for balance) and your body based on your surrounds. In the old days (before the numbers) this is how we jumped. We'd have a general start spot on the runway and we'd eye ball and steer our way into our take off spot. OK, that being said, other than running the track (that David Job and D.J. designed to re-teach run frequency) you have to retrain the vaulters mind that a 10 foot take off is OK, or an 11 foot etc.is OK. In other words retrain his since of runway kynestetics. This, like moving grip up and steps and take off back is done in baby steps. Do my exercise first to see if I'm right on this one. Then set up the track Like coach Job and Johnston recommend and have your vaulter run that bugger till it settles in. The reason he is coming in under is he's stretching to get to that "happy spot" rather than run the prescribed run as the chart calls for. Later..............Mike
Last edited by souleman on Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:24 pm

hey

see the post in safety..........

using the chart can be the best way to promote safety in the vault....

dj

KYLE ELLIS
PV Lover
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:31 am
Expertise: former college vaulter, Current college coach
Lifetime Best: 5.26
Favorite Vaulter: bubka
Location: Madison, WI
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KYLE ELLIS » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:30 pm

DJ, I e-mailed you some updated charts that should end all debate. Fell free to post them.
On a whole new level 6-20-09

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:43 pm

jschools wrote:
Ok. Today at the workout, I had my polevaulter grip the pole at 12 ft. I asked him if he thought he get that grip into the pit and he said he could and did. So, according to the chart, I set the "Mid" mark at 40 ft and the take off at 9 ft. I did not tell him what I was doing. He ran a 10 step approach. After making a couple of small adjustments to the beginning of the his run, he was dead on at the "Mid" mark, but about 9 inches under at the take off. Here is my question...Do I work with him on shortening his last step at take off or do I move his grip height to match his speed on the runway?

I apologize if this was already discussed in the previous 27 pages. I still haven't had a chance to read all of the yet.

Thanks for your input.


set the takeoff based on the reach of your vaulter, not the chart... if it's still under get the athlete to "increase the frequency" and correct the posture and run mechanics first.. see if they can "chop", feel like they chop.. before moving back..

dj

User avatar
ladyvolspvcoach
PV Follower
Posts: 606
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:52 pm
Location: Knoxville, Tennessee
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby ladyvolspvcoach » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:19 pm

jschools wrote:
Ok. Today at the workout, I had my polevaulter grip the pole at 12 ft. I asked him if he thought he get that grip into the pit and he said he could and did. So, according to the chart, I set the "Mid" mark at 40 ft and the take off at 9 ft. I did not tell him what I was doing. He ran a 10 step approach. After making a couple of small adjustments to the beginning of the his run, he was dead on at the "Mid" mark, but about 9 inches under at the take off. Here is my question...Do I work with him on shortening his last step at take off or do I move his grip height to match his speed on the runway?

I apologize if this was already discussed in the previous 27 pages. I still haven't had a chance to read all of the yet.

Thanks for your input


that is not an unusual experience. If you are using a 5 left approach with a 40' mid the from the mid in mark with chalk 5'2" increments toward the pit. Then watch the approach and you will see that your athlete will probably hit every mark until the last two or three. That's when they are trying to begin and complete the plant. There are several things that will cause an over stride during these strides. But first mark the runway as I have suggested and see what happens. Then we can talk further.

OH! one more thing. 5 lefts is one thing, but a personal oppinion - anything under 7 lefts isn't an approach...its a drill!!

Coach Job

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:08 pm

thanks Jeff

for the :yes: and keep producing champions..

dj

Hey Dave,

I just want to let you know I have been using your 6 step mid mark the past 8 years and have found this to be the most valuable tool. I use the ratio speed to grip height with all my HS vaulters. I get over 40 vaulters out every year from my HS and I have had 23 State Champions the past 15 years. The key is to get them to run properly and once you understand the chart this becomes fairly easy.
I read all your posts and a few years ago you sent me charts and graphs that were invaluable.

Will you be in Reno this year?

Thanks again for all your insight.

Jeff Guy Desert Vista HS Arizona

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:59 pm

good morning,

go to this article at AdvantageAthletics and you can read the original statements i make concerning the why?s..

hopefully as more people understand the simplicity and how important it is to "correct" vaulting and safety, they will began to us it...

http://advantageathletics.com/pole-vaul ... ach-marks/

thanks

dj

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:23 pm

Good morning,

I spent yesterday at the meet at the University of Florida. I “watched” 40 university level vaulters, men and women and monitored there 6 step mark.

100% of the end result of their vaults was determined by where they were 6 steps from the takeoff!!! 100%... based on speed, accuracy and grip!!! 100%

Only three times (three jumps) during the day did I think where they were 6 steps from the takeoff… was not going to work… those three jumps the athlete (two women, one guy) were able to increase their speed... not stretch and had a completed jump even though it took tremendous effort on there part.

Plus two jumpers (one masters level and one university freshman) were so far off, I thought we were going to have a death.. I contacted the official and a coach.. told him to tell them to move there step in, lower there grip or not let them jump.. he told them and the master jumper changed and made the pit on his next jump but didn’t continue because he knew he wasn’t safe and wouldn't go at a bar.. the other kid came down... was way out, went up and came back on the runway.. he didn’t get hurt but would not takeoff again on his next two jumps…good.... all these two needed to know, and their coach, was to be safe they needed to fix the run...!!!

I am still extremely, extremely frustrated, that all the coaches and athletes don’t “get it”.. even 90% of this board… it’s almost as if what I see and have seen for 30 plus years is invisible to everyone else..

Side bar.
I’m going to take this few lines to tell you I’m very Pi$$$ed and angry at the pole vault community because you refuse to listen and you refuse to even give me a chance to even explain why and where I’m coming from. You continue to vault unsafe and below your potential because of this one single element.. you will listen to every “excuse’ as to why we are not jumping world records, that our plant is off, our “technique” is screwed.. I can’t swing,…. how do I stop “tucking”.. yada,yada,yada..

The answer is.. your run and pole carry is off! We have USA men and women that are capable of jumping a world record.. yes we need an “out” (free.. call it what you will) takeoff, yes we need a fast continuous swing, yes we need a high grip and big poles… do da.. do da…

Jump like Tim Mack’s 5.90 04 trials jump with bubka’s speed and you will set a men’s world record. The technique is better.. just slightly low on speed.

It is increasingly frustrating that you just finished the summit, one of the greatest things that has ever happened to pole vaulting.. I came and worked the first seven. My ‘chart” has been used in part or whole in “lectures’ in at least 3 summits by other coaches, once or twice in Europe and I have never been ask to come and explain the significants of the chart or the run, not once. Actually it seems I have been “encouraged” not to come… maybe many that are involved feel it would be a distraction?? Or it is felt that those other coaches, who are friends and I admire, can explain my work better than I can?


Back to the weekend………

There was only one athlete that was under because of a mark to close… all the other “unders” were from stretching and reaching because they were out to far at the “MID” for the speed they were running.

There has been some great, informative post on here.. I respect the knowledge from those that have it and want to share it.. what I don’t respect or get is why most refuse to address the run.. or if they think they are addressing the run they apparently don’t know how to “teach” what they know!

I have continually offered to do run sessions free!! (maybe because I will do it free everyone feels it has not value) I can assure you, and you are welcome to prove me wrong any time… but I can teach the run in the pole vault better than any pole vault coach in the world, bar none… you can take it to the bank and any of you that are gamblers I will gladly make a “wager” with you.. at least that way I will get paid..

For those that are into the “truth” .. you just heard it..

dj

ps.. those run sessions are still available.. call or email me and I will meet you at the UF track (Gainesville, FL) … any time… come ready to learn and do the simple things I ask… it’s the same for everyone .. if you are truly coming to learn how it’s done.. refusing a drill or change is not an option…

User avatar
KirkB
PV Rock Star
Posts: 3550
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 6:05 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter; Former Elite Vaulter; Former Coach; Fan
Lifetime Best: 5.34
Favorite Vaulter: Thiago da Silva
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:41 pm

dj wrote: ... I can teach the run in the pole vault better than any pole vault coach in the world, bar none …

DJ, I'm sure this is a true statement! Bold ... but true! :yes:

I'm one of those PVP coaches that rarely give advice about the run. My reason is that I don't consider myself an expert on the topic. I wish I was ... but I never ever got really really good at sprinting down the runway ... ever. Where I excelled was in the takeoff and the swing ... which made up for my slowness down the runway ... so that's what I emphasize in my posts.

There are plenty of other PVP coaches that can ... and do ... give good advice about the run ... with yourself at the very top of that list.

Don't despair ... continue your great efforts to educate the rest of us about the run ... and particularly about the Mid Mark Chart.

I for one greatly appreciate your insight into a part of the vault that I never did master. Bravo! :yes:

Kirk
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

dj
PV Enthusiast
Posts: 1858
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 9:07 am
Expertise: Coach
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby dj » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:09 pm

hye

thanks Kirk...

look i don't pretend i could make you a Bubka down the runway but i could have helped you be faster..

tully wasn't the fastest but he got faster..

the only reason we have not had a world record since Bubka is the run.. we have had 100's of "pole vaulters" just not the right ones with the correct run.

dj

PS.. Without the correct run… based on speed, posture and rhythm you cannot takeoff out with the right force or posture, you cannot have a continuous fast swing, you cannot bend (some call it load but I call it shortening the radius) the pole correctly, and you cannot swing to vertical in a position or in time to do anything positive with a vertical position…

Why is the run important?? All of the above..

Stretch the last steps and you will “flag” or go more horizontal off the top than vertical…. Even if you swung/got to vertical before you “extended”.. the result will be lesss height above grip… every time…

Physics dictates all of these.. you have to be very special to overcome a bad, inaccurate run based on speed to grip… very few have.. men or women

User avatar
rainbowgirl28
I'm in Charge
Posts: 30435
Joined: Sat Aug 31, 2002 1:59 pm
Expertise: Former College Vaulter, I coach and officiate as life allows
Lifetime Best: 11'6"
Gender: Female
World Record Holder?: Renaud Lavillenie
Favorite Vaulter: Casey Carrigan
Location: A Temperate Island
Contact:

Re: Mid Mark Chart

Unread postby rainbowgirl28 » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:37 pm

FWIW, Dave Butler told us in the coaches meeting at Reno that he believes in DJ's mid-mark chart.


Return to “Pole Vault - Advanced Technique”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests