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Tim, as usual you're on the money!

Tim McMichael wrote:

KirkB wrote: It seems to me that if you pull this early (and if you're REALLY strong - in the extreme case), you'll pull yourself into a back uprise ... which is totally going to screw you up on the pole ... you'll slow the pole's rotation, and you'll stall out.

At this point in the vault energy is flowing into the pole. (A liquid metaphor is probably not accurate from a pure physics standpoint, but illustrative of what I mean.) At this point you have a dynamic system where energy is fluid. It is moving between the vaulter and the pole, and it has to take the path of least resistance. This means that no matter how hard you pull, you cannot do a back uprise, You will only accelerate your trail leg and increase the rotation of the pole. These are the only paths the energy can take.

Now that you've explained it this way, Tim, I agree with you 100%.

Tim McMichael wrote:

KirkB wrote: During the downswing, the vaulter is not only swinging his trail leg down and forward, he's also transforming his body from a "C" to an upright "I" ... the "I" being when he passes the chord. It is at the chord that I think the top arm and trail leg should have already reached their max acceleration. This max acceleration is "the whip".

This is exactly my argument for the heretical idea that a tuck is not detrimental as long as it is done after that maximum swing speed is attained. The conservation of angular momentum is, after all, a law. This is relevant because it is also a fact that a lower COM causes the pole to rotate faster. It follows that the "I" position should be reached as late in the jump as possible. The later the vaulter covers the chord, the faster the pole rotates. The extreme "C" allows this to happen. The swing is more powerful, and the COM stays lower longer. The problem is that in the most extreme deep "C" vaults this means that a tuck is necessary or the pole is going to run off and leave you behind. I'm sorry to stray into this again. I can't help it. I want to add a point that I have not mentioned yet. Just food for thought that I have been chewing on for about two decades. After the pole starts to straighten, the chord is still rotating. The rotation is slowing because the chord is lengthening, but ideally you still have about five feet of penetration left to get to the bar. A tucked position keeps the COM low for that last bit of rotation, thus increasing pole speed. The reason Dial has the world record push off is not because he was so strong that he could just throw himself higher at the end of the jump. What he did have was the fastest pole speed in history. This is no exaggeration. When he was gripping 15'9" on a 17'4" 200, he was getting launched into the air like a rag doll. It was truly amazing to watch him blast 19'8" in practice with that grip on that pole. And he did this with an extreme tuck that left his hips well below his shoulders for almost the entire vault.

Tim, I get what you're saying, and I know that we both followed the same Laws of Physics in our disparate jumps. Yes - disparate; no - not desparate!

I never felt the need to tuck at all. Like you, I always had lots of pole speed, and would often blow thru with standards at 80 on a fairly stiff (for me) pole. I never had the opposite problem (stalling out) unless my takeoff was completely off. But unlike your technique, I had a VERY EARLY inversion ... which I attribute to my extreme pre-stretch and powerful downswing. I swung much longer and harder than you ... becuz I had more room and time to do so before I passed the chord. So once inverted, I was well into my extension far before I got to the point at which you would be tucking. I'm not saying mine was any better or worse than your technique right now ... just different.

My point is ... I did not tuck and you did. IMO, there can be only one logical explanation to this ... something we did BEFORE we tucked (or didn't tuck) must have led to our extreme differences re tucking.

I suspect that this difference was in our takeoff points. You were usually under, whereas I was usually out. (Where was Joe on his best jumps?) If you recall, I also had a rather extreme forward lean on my takeoff ... to "fill the gap" between my out takeoff and when the pole hit. Depending on my steps (among other factors), my body would decide when to penetrate and when to swing. I did not conciously pull at any particular moment ... I left that up to intuitive "feel". I had my best (most technically optimal) jumps when I pulled immediately upon hitting, and I had my most consistent (albeit lower) jumps when I paused (something that I realize today that I should never have done). I never fine-tuned my technique to the point that you did, where I raised my grip higher than 15-4, or got on bigger poles (when I didn't pause). When I did raise my grip, I got sub-optimal results, and when I did pause, I could get on huge poles, but at the expense of very poor technique (relatively). So I never optimized my pole stiffness as you did ... I was more focused on mastering my technique. Had I forced myself onto bigger poles, I might have HAD to tuck like you ... I don't know. But that was never a target technique for me, and I just never got that far in my career ... I was still learning how to harness the power that I discovered by my extreme takeoff and pre-stretch.

So had you been out more, you might not have had to tuck as much ... and conversely, had I been in more (and on bigger poles), I might have HAD to tuck.

This is just my hypothesis. What do you think? Does it hold any water?

Folks, remember that Tim and I are discussing when (and why) to pull with the TOP ARM. We are NOT talking about the 640 Model bottom arm pull ... in fact, we're both confused by that aspect of Agapit's model.

Kirk

Kirk,
You need to come down and I will show you most of the questions you have for the 6.40 model and it's teachings.


Rick

Had I forced myself onto bigger poles, I might have HAD to tuck like you

The size of my poles definitely forced me to tuck. I could not get on big enough poles to jump high without driving straight in for as long as possible, but doing that forced me to tuck to catch up to the pole. And I think I discovered something unique that allowed me to do things from a tucked position that for 99% of other vaulters is impossible. I honestly think my vault was one huge compensation for my lack of athletic ability and much of what I did applies to no one else. That is why I continually insist that what I say on that subject is descriptive and not prescriptive. Coaches who insist that their vaulters not tuck are right to do so.

But to get back on the right focus here, I was pulling as hard as possible for as long as possible throughout the entire jump. I could not get on big enough poles any other way. I tried to increase the pressure as much as possible, as early as possible, and for as long as possible; literally till the fingers of my top hand left the pole. Joe actually tore a tendon in his right hand because of this.

As far as being under goes, this is a bit of a misconception. (Not that my jump is important enough for anybody to study.) But there are only two vaults of mine on video in existence - as far as I know, and neither of them are particularly good jumps. When my step was on, I was able to swing much faster and move much bigger poles. I could penetrate on poles that I could not possibly catch up to. The soft end of 50 pounds over my weight was as much as I could do. If I went bigger than that, the pole started unbending before I was finished swinging and I would end up in a forced bail out that put my head above the bar. I hated that. It was the absolute bane of my career. I can't count the times I would be looking at a bar with more than enough pole speed to make it, but with no way to catch up to the pole. On the very few instances when I did, I never missed a bar and put my COG between 18'10" and 19'2" in the air. To this day I am frustrated that I was never able to pull that jump off with the bar at a significant height. And I think the reason I had this problem was that I was not strong enough to pull hard enough to get there. Joe was much stronger than me and could do this consistently. I could do it on maybe one out of every ten jumps, and my takeoff had to be perfect.

Another relevant fact is that on these bigger poles, if I did not pull and swing early and hard, they would put me back on the front buns (if I was lucky). My swing added that much to the movement of the pole. This dynamic also allowed me to be very aggressive. I never had to worry about landing in the box because if I was on a pole that was too big to get in on, I could not possibly finish the vault. This meant that when I went to my biggest poles I could attack the jump with reckless abandon instead of having to fight a wait-and-see instinct.

I am pretty sure that Agapit is talking about something along these lines, but with an emphasis on the bottom arm for some reason.

Wow,Thought I would stop by to see what was happening and was surprised to see there hasn't been a new post on this thread in almost a month!
In regards to the left hand pull in the vault I would like to add in my most humble manner that it is an extremely critical element of the vault and as any critical element it is well worth the study and I can clearly see why Agapit is drawing attention to it. It is the timing of that pull (when and how much) that I feel must be clearly understood. I believe that the pole is loaded by the top hand as revealed by the stretching action of the right shoulder and this is also a rubberband action so that the top hand lats initiate the pull which is then immediately added to by some pulling action of the left arm very soon after the plant takes place so that there is some (and I repeat some although mostly just lat that also increases the velocity of the whip until the pole has reached maximum bend. It is then that the major pulling action of the left hand takes place as the pole begins to uncoil. This action has two major benefits in that it delays the uncoiling action of the pole Which alows the vaulter to get out ahead of the pole and also adds to the speed of the whip. As the whip meets the drive knee, the drive knee straightens out with the whip to add to the upward thrust of the hips. Althought I have much disagreement with this phase of the vault I believe that from the inverted reverse "J" as I choose to call it, the upper back head and kneck are laid back in an aggressive manner as the most aggresive part of the left hand pull takes place. So basically what I am trying to say is that some left hand pull begins very early in the vault very soon after the plant and that it becomes ever more aggresive throughout the swing to verticle. I am back for more education and would openly except an criticism of my model.

I would like to add that I understand that this description probably is not per Agapits 6.3 Model but illustrated what I believe is the correct left hand pulling action that should take place in my Ideal Model which is stilll under developement.

Wow time flies, all 1.4 sec of it, not pun intended:) This post is 6 years old!!! If you look at the issue of the left arm pull, now the most controversial issue since the free takeoff (pre-jump) are widely accepted by now, you will see that from basic understaning of the swing on the rope or the rigit pole, there is no possible way to acelerate the natural body swing, but throughout the immediate left arm pull and that the athlete would think of nothing else, but the pull on the rope or a rigit pole. The addition of the pole bend absolutely throws our brains off the track. However, if you really analyze the "matrix" without looking at the images, but the data only, you will see beyond the bend deception:) You can read about it in the previous pages of this post.

Another question a coach should ask: "if I'm not teaching immediate pull, what am I teaching - delay, chest penetration, a wait for some mark/position to ocure, what indeed is there"?

Just want to take the opportunity to thank Agapit for starting this post. For me, this thread have been the second best way of understanding the best technical model (reading BTB is of course ranked as number one).

Glad to know you are still alive Roman -take a break from being a capitalist and call some time! Actually you could put a cheque in the mail for 'atlegu'.

agapit wrote:Wow time flies, all 1.4 sec of it, not pun intended:) This post is 6 years old!!! If you look at the issue of the left arm pull, now the most controversial issue since the free takeoff (pre-jump) are widely accepted by now, you will see that from basic understaning of the swing on the rope or the rigit pole, there is no possible way to acelerate the natural body swing, but throughout the immediate left arm pull and that the athlete would think of nothing else, but the pull on the rope or a rigit pole. The addition of the pole bend absolutely throws our brains off the track. However, if you really analyze the "matrix" without looking at the images, but the data only, you will see beyond the bend deception:) You can read about it in the previous pages of this post.

Another question a coach should ask: "if I'm not teaching immediate pull, what am I teaching - delay, chest penetration, a wait for some mark/position to ocure, what indeed is there"?

I thought there was a difference between free takeoff an pre-jump. Free, being what bubka did on 95% of his vaults, and pre-jump being what Markov and Feofanova did. I don't think the pre-jump or left arm pull are widely accepted. Pulling down with the left arm is what most high school kids start off doing. Unless you are playing on words and trying to give us the right answer while at the same time giving us the wrong answer?

I can swing up on a pole, highbar, rope without pulling down with my left arm. Petrov doesn't speak of pulling. "It is worth mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through active unbending of the left arm, whereas the acceleration of the vaulter’s hips drive upwards was built up by the turn of the shoulders back and down."

This video I posted nothing in it represents a pull-down with the left arm. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I49VgJG7q_Y
Even on the rope drill you can see that he doesn't pull with his lift until it is time to extend up the pole. There is a swing, which I believe should be done with long levers and a straight body as possible to load the pole and get the hips on-top of a bent pole. Then there is an extension- pull with the left, unbend the pole etc.

I hope there is something I am missing because I agree with everything in the manifesto except the left arm pull.

Lastly if you were to do a straight body swing up on a high bar from a static postion, your arms have to do almost the opposite of pull down in order to get your hips up. If you pull down you end up doing a chin up

So my friend, what should you do when your takeoff foot leaves the ground?

altius wrote:Glad to know you are still alive Roman -take a break from being a capitalist and call some time! Actually you could put a cheque in the mail for 'atlegu'.

Alan I'm glad you ate well. When are we skiing next:)

Free takeoff is a pre-jump done on the grip when pole begins to bend right after the tip of the toe leaves the ground. I suggest if you are well in the air before pole begins to bend, raise your grip