Lavillenie vs Bubka

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PVDaddy
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:20 pm

We have indeed seen that there are two very unique styles of vaulting that are capable of breaking the world record as demonstrated by S.B and R.L. For me the fundamental questions that need to be raised and are at the very heart of raising the bar as we continue to move forward is to determine what it is they BOTH have in common and what is it that they both perform uniquely? It is universally excepted that no other vaulter, besides Bubka has been able to swing, Invert and push to the extreme that Bubka has with his Petrov Method. Likewise I feel it is equally true that Nobody has been able to get out ahead and beat the uncoiling pole to achieve the push that Lavellenie has with his unique "Tuck and Shoot" method. So for me the questions that need to be answered is, what is it that each vaulter does better than everyone else with their prospective methods? Also from a coaches prospective what style of vaulting has most consistently produced the best results? This is not to imply that a coach should be so narrowly minded as to not assist their vaulters in the direction that suits the individuals style the best, but, should be determined for developing a method that suits the majority. For me this is the Petrov/Bubka method of vaulting but, I am certainly open to other direction. Has anyone ever compiled a comparison of what style has most consistently produced the best results across the board in College or Elite?
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:56 pm

PVDaddy wrote: Kirk: ... Kirk: ...To me this type of thinking is the type of thinking that has been holding pole vault back and is just the opposite of enlightning ...

The very fact that their respective techniques for generating energy out of their Tap ARE different is the very reason we SHOULD examine and contrast them and that is exactly what I attempted to do in my post. :idea:

"The very fact ..."? This is not a fact - this is just your own personal opinion or interpretation.
Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby altius » Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:48 pm

The fact is that you are debating an issue that would have been redundant if Bubka had not traded performance for the financial rewards he needed to ensure the security of his family. On at least one occasion he refused an offer to double his usual bonus for a one centimetre improvement on the world record for a bonus of $160,000 from the meet promoter. This is fact, not opinion.

It is clear that IF his body - and especially his achilles - had handled to stress of continually vaulting at big heights, the world record would haver stood at 6.30m or better when he retired. I doubt that Lavellenie - great athlete that he is - would have ever beaten that. I, along with others certainly saw him clear bungees at 6.30m on the warm up track in Atlanta - but I, again with others, also saw him stick his ankle into a bucket of ice water - already in position for that purpose - to deal with the pain in his achilles.

So carry on your pointless debate PVDaddy - it may sate your ego but it will do nothing to advance pole vaulting. In fact it will confuse the situation even more for any who bother to follow your argument. Fortunately for our sport there will be few if any who will do that. So why continue to waste your time with this rubbish. As I repeatedly urge you - if you are really interested in the vault find some athletes and coach them. There are plenty out there who would love help. If you are already coaching put up some on this forum to show how you are translating your theories into action - because in the end that is all that matters in this business.

Oh -and if you have time to do some reading -try Chapter Seven in BTB2 "Biomechanics, Technical models and style". It was an attempt to clarify and simplify an important issue in a manner that may have helped coaches understand the relationships between these three issues. Not perfect but reasonably clear IMHO. However - and you probably didn't notice this either as you berate me for daring to mention pulling in the early phase of the vault(incidentally without bothering to read my rationale), is my contribution to understanding modern technique by clarifying the link between stiff pole vaulting and flexible pole vaulting. This is what is needed,simplification (sometimes perhaps over simplification) and clarification. Most coaches, although reasonably intelligent folk , do not hold doctorates in biomechanics.

The final comment I would make -without having made the kind of study that you think useful -is that Lavellenie holds the pole at the start of the run up like a PB vaulter, he carries and lowers it like a PB vaulter, he takes off outside his top hand like a PB vaulter -although I cannot tell whether he uses a pre jump or not I suspect he does. His hands are a bit lower that Petrov would like immediately before take off - but all in all Petrov would be happy up to that point. The swing is clearly long, fast and powerful so again Petrov would be happy. So in what most coaches regard as the critical phases of the vault - the run and take off and swing (all important in the stiff pole era) - Petrov would be happy. However if Lavellenie tucks to any degree - as it seems he does - Petrov would not be happy because he believes that the best way to put energy into the pole is to stay long - for as long as possible. However that debate has gone on for a a long time (even Tim McM is not convinced and I trust him) and unless and until we get force plate data we will not be certain - but on my analysis of both approaches, Petrov's makes the most sense in terms on energy in - but only on Bubby's 'prettier' vaults, energy exploited.

Thats it from me on this issue. Pursue it to your hearts content -although I doubt your heart will never be content until we bestow on you the title "World Master of Pole Vaulting". In your dreams old son. ;)
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:27 pm

No that was your dream Altius. Your the one always selling the book remember? My dream is to being able enjoy what I like Part of that is helping others do the same, in the process! So far the rides been awesome! Truthfully. I have no reason to complain, You?
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby altius » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:59 pm

Then there is another challenge for you, writing a book. However I think you will find it rather more difficult than posting on PVP where virtually all you write is either ignored or forgotten in a few minutes. A book is a bit different, for it will sit out there forever with people deconstructing it or learning from it - so you had better get it close to your true beliefs in the first place.

First of course you actually need to coach some athletes and help them to develop, and then you can write a book about your experience and what you have learned from that experience. It will of course help if you have studied with Vitali Petrov, Alex Parnov (who lived in my house with Markov and Chystiakov for three months),Maurice Houvion, Anje Krysinski, Jean Claude Perin, been a mentor to Australian coaches like Mark Stewart and Ray Boyd,had Roman Botcharnikov live in my home for a year, attended the summit on at least five occasions (and been an invited keynote speaker), been working clinics in the US for twenty years and so have good relationships and credibility with a whole bunch of the best coaches in the USA. Happy to let you know their names. So we have some facts not just ambit claims.

Above all I actually coach athletes -who improve and love the sport.

Of course you have to get folk to buy your book - and not surprisingly they will not do that if they don't believe there is value in it. Incidentally just sold another box to a coach in Finland who is going to share the books with his colleagues. It was recommended to him by Steve Rippon,now the Finnish Vault coach, ( formerly the coach of Paul Burgess - world junior champion and subsequently a 6 meter vaulter and Jimmy Miller who just missed the final in Atlanta) Steve has been promoting the book with coaches around the world since it was produced.

Try it and let us know how both areas go -coaching athletes and selling your book. My record in both areas is on the record. Along with film of those athletes. Yours are still in your dreams. But you still have not read Chapter Seven in BTB2 have you , you naughty little fellow. I know that if you had you would have spent a lot of thought into taking it apart. But I will tell that there is one important omission from a biomechanical point of view re the advantages of the PB model(not an error but definitely an important omission, although it is picked up later in the book from a more practical perspective) . let us know what you think it is - you would actually be doing a service if you can meet this challenge. :D ;)
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby altius » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:32 pm

Sorry - I should have made the point that after you have spent any time at all with the coaches I named, you cannot ever delude yourself - unless you are already delusional of course - that you really are an expert in this field. Try it sometime and you will discover what I mean. :yes:
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:57 pm

Altius, I do not aspire for any titles of expertise. I would love to have the luxury of learning from a few great coaches as you suggest. You are correct about this point also. I could never be content until I felt I had mastered my understanding of what is the most efficient and maximum way to transfer energy into and to take energy out of the Vaulter/Pole system. To strive to NEVER miss and to learn EVERY SINGLE opportunity! Every single motion made, every single one, is either a motion in the right direction or a motion in the wrong direction. In the end every single one of these motions add up to or are subtracted, or missed and they ALL determine final Bar height. I believe pole vaulting is perhaps the most complex 10 seconds or so in sport. You have to run and jump and swing with a tool in your hands. Were the tool and the proper use of that tool, by the athlete, is as important as the athletes physical ability. When performed correctly, to me, is a thing of beauty. As if there are two athletes, the vaulter and the pole, working symbiotically together, in perfect harmony and rhythm toward the same goal. It takes time and great effort to fully understand and perfect. Especially with all the different theories and missed opportunities never taught, to add energy to the system. For me the reason why I became a pole vault addict. Most (Coaches and Vaulters alike) do not take the time, to try to understand every proper motion to the enth degree. In fact most people never do this with anything. They are the majority mediocre. This is what separates the best, from the rest. This is the ONLY way New Records are set. Perhaps we can agree on this point?

Believe it or not? I agree on most of your philosophy of pole vaulting and I am putting them and my own to practice as a coach every day! :D
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby altius » Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:50 pm

Yeah! Yeah! Take a look at the abuse you have thrown at me over the past few months - especially the crap about 'pulling', when you clearly have never read - so do not understand - my position, on this issue. If you had read my mea culpa you would have seen how I deal with it from a practical point of view - and that might really have helped your coaching.

So use you analytical abilities to tell me -and everyone else - what i missed in Chapter Seven which deals with Biomechanics of the vault. The clue of course is that i did address it from a practical perspective later on :P .
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:45 pm

Altius:
Take a look at the abuse you have thrown at me over the past few months - especially the crap about 'pulling', when you clearly have never read - so do not understand - my position, on this issue.


Do you mean the part were you state that the old timers use to pull early in the swing while stiff pole vaulting?

I do not agree with your analysis on this on this. I have examined as many old time videos of the great old timers and can not find ONE instant of them pulling prior to breaking at the hips at the early stages of there swing, but find, in every instant ,they pull in the upswing after their feet have passed the pole.

or

Do you mean when you equate Fiberglass vaulting as an infinite series of stiff pole vaulting? I do not agree with that analysis as a whole either. Although in part it is true, that the flexible pole changes in length in an infinite series of stiff poles, the flexible pole also bends drastically to the left or right depending on which side you swing on. Also the top and bottom hands are nearly aligned on the flexible pole as your feet pass the pole and at around the same time the vaulter breaks at the hips,at the beginning of the upswing. Very close to the highbar position, with the exception that the grip is facing toward the face with the top hand in the pole vault. Spacing of the hands prior to take off is very close ( next to each other) by most of the old timers on stiff pole (Of course they slid their bottom hand up) and shoulder with apart on the flexible pole. So for many reasons you cannot fully equate stiff pole vaulting to flexible vaulting. It is not one in the same. Flexible poles have changed the game.

If you want to say that when you pull will change under a less than Ideal conditions, such as being Way under or way out, that may be the case and even then I am not convinced pulling earl is ever a good plan? I am MOST interested in clarifying when to pull under Ideal conditions in the ideal plant and take-off conditions. When I examine Bubka or Lavellenie in BOTH their World record vaults it is clear to me that they both perform a pulling action when they break at the hips and when there feet pass the pole and they are entering rock back.

Did I cover the MEA CULPA you have been crying about for so long? Bottom line Altius is that I feel you are wrong by suggesting a pull early in the swing as Agapit is suggesting in M-640 and as described on your ski trip epiphany as the ideal time to pull in the ideal vault. After the less than Ideal Vault is not what we are ever after here.

I now done with this subject Altius, Hash it out to your hearts content.
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby altius » Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:15 pm

PVDADDY "Although in part it is true, that the flexible pole changes in length in an infinite series of stiff poles, the flexible pole also bends drastically to the left or right depending on which side you swing on."

Unfortunately old son, that single sentence of yours betrays the fact that you do not have the slightest idea of what you are talking about -the fact that pole bends to the left or the right has nothing to do with the shortening of the chord -the biomechanical pole.

And - despite all the effluvium of the past few months - you still don't grasp the issue of what happens after the athlete leaves the ground - or more importantly what a coach does or does not tell an athlete to help them improve that phase of the vault. You spend too much time telling everyone what you think you know and not enough time reading what others have already written or taking on board what others are actually doing.

The reason why I - and I suspect most other folk who post on PVP - am an infinitely better coach than you, is that I have learned from the best and I apply what I have learned in a reflective and critical manner. So for us every training session is a learning experience.
You see I was very lucky early in my professional career to meet one of the all time great teachers of football -soccer to you. I went to the experience as a young man believing that I did know it all - but within an hour of the first morning of a 14 day course on high level coaching in soccer I learned that I was a novice. That like you at present in the vault -I did not know enough to know how little I knew.

That experience has stayed with me for fifty five years and it has always been there to remind me that hubris is a dangerous thing. As a result I have always been aware of the truth of John Wooden's statement and it is why I took myself off to study at the feet of the master coaches I named earlier when I decided to try help vaulters initially in South Australia and then in OZ more generally. The result of that is all on the record.

But you still haven't told me what I missed out in the Biomechanics chapter - why not? If you really understand the vault you should find it easy, especially with the clue I gave you. So stop rambling on about the mistake you believe Roma and i have made with the notion of a pull - try to get your head around the idea as I did -rather than dismissing it out of hand. Just a clue - if you asked my athletes you will find that it has never been mentioned, but if you looked at the drills they do you would see -well perhaps YOU would not - that it is implicit in many of them. But that really is a bit to complex for you isn't it - not telling athletes to do something you believe should be done!

You can make your mind up now - either walk away or come back with film of your athletes progression sometime in the next six months. Anything less will tell us all you are just a bag of wind. Hope to see the athletes because we need as many committed vault coaches as we can get.

Finally consider this. Why do you think it is that a hard nosed professional coach like Rick Bagget in Oregon on the one hand, and on the other, one of the most popular athlete/coaches in the country- even the world - in Bubba Sparks, will invite me to stay in their homes when I do clinics with them? Must be my personality!
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:39 am

Altius
:the fact that pole bends to the left or the right has nothing to do with the shortening of the chord -the biomechanical pole. Perhaps KirkB can explain it nicely to you in words of one syllable.


I didnt say the chord did not shorten when the pole bends to the left or right now did I? Of course it does!
Before you go there, however ,you may just want to concider that there are indeed physical forces applied to the vaulter with that bend!
Of course you did not here that from Petrov, so you would have never concidered that for youself, becsuase your own critical thinking skill are severely limited!
This is what I said:
the flexible pole also bends drastically to the left or right depending on which side you swing on
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:37 am

Even with that being said Altius, don't think for one minute that I did not take notice long ago in regards to how you do not teach your vaulters how or when to pull. I picked that up from you many, many moons ago! What I gathered then, is that you put them on a rope, a high bar, or any number of other training devices and let them figure it out for themselves.You let them learn it intuitively. I believe part of that was because you were not sure yourself, when the ideal time to pull under the ideal plant and take off was? Many of your past comments bare that out, especially based on some about the old timers, the ski trip and the infinite pole series? In that, you like Agapit, were advocating an early pull. Were most of your high caliber coaches you trained with suggesting that under ideal conditions? Certainly if you spent that much time with them, it was the subject of discussion? I believe another part of your rational for this is that you felt that if you instructed them on when to pull it would hinder them from focusing on all important elements ,such as swinging, or learning how to make adaptations in less than ideal conditions? I agree with that rational. But, It would be a mistake to just focus on any one aspect of the vault for that matter! But I do not intend to put words in your mouth?
That does not mean that we as coaches should not try to determine when is the appropriate time to pull and to make certain are vaulter understand when under ideal conditions, if you believe a pulling effort through both shoulders offers an advantage to raising the hips? I believe it does. With all of the confusion on the subject here, it took me four years of intense study and thought to determine when that should occur for myself? In fact, I clearly gave my rational for that with 6 major points under my thread "The timing of the Pull". I should have made 7 points, because what I failed to mention was that the motion of re-extending the arms upward and yes partially forward, with the pole, when the hands are over the head while coming out of the "full body coil' position of reverse-C, naturally, seamlessly and here too, SYMBIOTICALLY assist in the acceleration and force of the pull, at the perfect moment and position. Agapits "Continuous Chain of Motion" should never be disrupted. Just as the pull perfectly blends with and assist the push toward the pit. I believe it is our jobs as coaches to make CERTAIN our vaulters know and visualize that chain and see every link and especially KNOW, the order of the links. However,these links are NEVER to be visualized as being individuals, but are in fact interwoven into one necklace, were it is impossible to see were one begins or ends.

Altius:
Unfortunately old son, that single sentence of yours betrays the fact that you do not have the slightest idea of what you are talking about -the fact that pole bends to the left or the right has nothing to do with the shortening of the chord -the biomechanical pole. Perhaps KirkB can explain it nicely to you in words of one syllable
.

Altius, there was a very specific reason I made note of why the severe bend of the Flexible pole, either to the right or the left also changed the game of vaulting? It did for at least 2 very important reasons. Can you name them?

I will buy, beg, borrow or rob another copy of your book to answer your question in chapter 7 if you will answer it? I borrowed it to someone and they never returned it, but, I'm quite certain your Ally from Canada is eager to beat me to it anyway?

Altius:
The reason why I - and I suspect most other folk who post on PVP - am an infinitely better coach than you, is that I have learned from the best and I apply what I have learned in a reflective and critical manner. So for us every training session is a learning experience.


I did not or do have the luxury of learning first hand from Petrov, Etc. but you are sadly mistaken by assuming that I do not apply what I have leaned in a reflective and critical manner or that every training session is Not also a learning experience for us all!
Every jot and every tittle adds up to more than just a little.


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