Lavillenie vs Bubka

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Tim McMichael
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby Tim McMichael » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:44 am

botakatobi wrote:You are correct that early vaulters did not try to bend the pole. Their focus was to swing very quickly and forcefully at a higher angle then todays vaulters.

Any bend their got from their wood, steel or glass poles was the result of their speed, grip height and pole rating. Yes, Gill rated poles from the early 1930's with the goal of pairing the correct size pole to the vaulter.

Coaches and vaulter did realize the whipping benefit of a flexible pole early on.

I think of a free take off as the vaulter being high on his or her toes while leaving the ground and pole tip hitting the planting box. Clearly this was not the goal or achieved by early vaulters.


What counts in a free takeoff is not when the pole hits the back of the box, but what the vaulter is doing with their posture and timing at the instant the pole takes the weight of the body. I stood ten feet from the runway and watched Bubka nearly set a world record taking off 8" under. He may not have been off the ground at the instant the pole began to load on all his jumps, but he attempted a free takeoff on all of them and the positive benefit of doing so was evident, even when the foot did not clear the ground. The differences in the arms between straight pole and flexible pole vaulters is entirely due to the fact that one bends and the other does not. I submit that Bubka, had he been forced to use a metal pole, would have had to change the alignment of his arms at takeoff, but little or nothing else to be able to compete with any of the athletes from the former era. Men like Steve Smith, for instance, or Dan Ripley would have simply been peeled off the pole. To compete on metal poles they would have had to change their entire approach to the vault, not just their arms. The video I referenced seems to me to be fairly conclusive. Yes the arms are different. But at the instant that the pole takes the weight of the body, the posture, attack angle, and timing are virtually identical.
Last edited by Tim McMichael on Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby ADTF Academy » Mon Feb 17, 2014 11:46 am

Commonalities in the jump.....


Debating which technique is superior the athlete in question needs to be taken into account not the masses.


Renaud has the highest clearance in history. Therefore he is officially the highest jumper of all time. I'm guessing even Renaud would say he needs to jump 6m+ many more times to reach the Legacy of Bubka. One single jump doesn't make you the best of all time just the highest.


To many think a technique or way to jump will match every single person. This is the fault of many many coaches. I have been around Renaud many times have talked to his previous and current coach on many occasions. I have watched and coached against other athletes both of them coach. Guess what they don't jump like Renaud. Renaud jumps like Renaud. Bubka jumped like Bubka. Looking at the commonalities of the jump is what will help you find the things that need to be to focused on.


Renaud is a freak when it comes to jumping reps. Dude jumps every day it seems. This was put into place early by his previous coach and maintained by his current coach. The day before meets he bombs over 5.70 bungees from short approaches. I would guess the day before the WR he took 10-15 jumps I wasn't there this year sadly. The thing I find remarkable about Renaud is that he has a remarkable feel of the vault. He knows his jump how to make adjustments on the fly in the air. He has taken so many vaults since he started. It is the part of Renaud that makes him exceptional. He can handle training volume most vaulters wouldn't even dream of trying.


The changes that have been made with the switch of coaches can only be answered by Renaud and his current coach. IMO I give them both huge props for not changing or altering too much to cause a regression. This seems to be what happens most of the time when people switch coaches. They try to change too much and fail. Won't lie this is what I thought was going to happen in 2012. After getting to know and hear many of the situations in place that did not occur from what I witnessed.

Here is what we do know for certain. He moved up to longer poles. 5.10 poles to 5.20 poles. Moved his grip up around 10cm or so this year. If he left everything the same and executed the jump he would go from 6.04 to 6.14 (he made 6.16). Did he really change anything else? Each year he is becoming a better vaulter and than he learned how to rotate a bigger grip. The combination of the factors lead to the WR IMO.

16'10 grip roughly so 16'2" effective grip to clear 20'2.75 so a 4' push. That is a push you would expect to see. All the numbers match and show that it was a very effective vault and Renaud was willing to grip high enough to break the WR.... Can he go any higher? Only time will tell if he can find more push or more grip. I personally think under the equipment constraints we have 4'3 to 4'5 is the biggest push we could see but 4' push is the max any coach and vaulter should count on. Please don't quote a guy on a 14 or 15 foot pole had a 5' push. They need to join the circus not professional pole vaulting. Even taking into account a situation like Kendricks right now. Amazing push, but is being out gripped by Renaud by 1'5"...... Good luck getting a 5'5" push to tie him.

IT'S ALL A NUMBERS GAME. Technique is the factor that helps paint the picture of how to play the numbers game.

Renaud is the new master of the game. High Grip with a High Push = WR..... Who can duplicate will be the next question. Will it take another 20 years to find that athlete willing to try.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby dj » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:07 pm

But that's with the understanding that a free takeoff means the pole and the vaulter are both rising up at the takeoff with no attempt to make the pole bend.


i would say that an "up" impulse at takeoff is as much, or MORE responsible for a CORRECT takeoff than what we are trying to attribute to a "free takeoff".

The key factor is the "impulse" rather than "free"..

I feel it should be "out" and not under… out meaning leaving at or just before the toe leaves the runway…

And faster vaulters have a better chance of taking off "free' and still have a good result, IF they have an "up" impulse at/before the pole tip contacts the back of the box… physics should bare that out…

RL performed the correct technique to become the world record holder.. if he didn't follow physics it would not have happened..

Kudo's

dj
Last edited by dj on Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PV2020 » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:16 pm

DJ,

Does anyone know what kind of Mid Renaud was working with? I know he is one of the only vaulters that does not really cut his step to take off. He does jump, but even when you watch him long jump over 24 feet it just looks like he is focusing more on speed than anything else (his long jump looks somewhat flat).

If I had to guess, I would say his mid mark was farther out than the chart would predict.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Mon Feb 17, 2014 1:37 pm

As I've said due to technical difficulties I have not been able to post the long form of my new article, which caompares the takeoff technique of Lav. and Bubka. I'm posting a brief summary of the key points here. More specific details will be answered on request.
The free-takeoff, which is advocated in the B/P model, is primarly designed to develop upward pole rotation to move the pole to vertical. The vaulter therefore emphasizes springinging upward and pushing up with the arms as he/she takes off. The takeoff point should be out and the pole should not begin bending until the vaulter is airbourne to minimize friction against the pole's movement.
It my view that the goal of the take should be to both bend and rotate the pole to vertical. This means the the vaulter should place equal emphasis on developing forward takeoff drive into the pole to initiate inward pole bend and an effective springing action to initiate pole rotation. Note that pushing up with the arms as the vaulter takes off is counter productive because it conflicts with the development of forward takeoff drive. Finally taking off at least slightly under , as the great majority of elite vaulters do, improves the vaulter's ability to develop forward takeoff drive into the pole.
The advantages of this takeoff style are: 1st, a relatively short vaulter like Lav. can achieve a high grip. 2ndly, emphasizing the development of forward takeoff drive into the pole improves the compreesion of the pole's axis as it bends which increases the proplusive force the the pole's axis as it expands when the pole recoils. In otherwords it improves the catapultic action of the vault.
Note that anaysis of about a dozen of Lav.'s vaults indicates that he utilizes the takeoff style discribed above ( he does not use a free-take off ).

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby dj » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:01 pm

PV2020

it was passed on to me that 1.5 to 2 years ago...he was in the 17.50 to 17.80 range and that he was 18.00 + (huge stretch) on the jump that broke the pole and i think broke his hand...

i was told on facebook that his "MID" on the 6.21/injury jump was over 2 feet out...

i do know they have marks on the runway and are checking them...

if you look at all the videos.. you can see when he was out... when he was out he was stretching and didn't have much of an "up" impulse.. which i believe he has on his good jumps...even though it doesn't look like much of a penultimate...


dj

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby achtungpv » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:38 pm

Tim McMichael wrote:I think it is not accurate to say that we have a world record with a radically different technique from that which Bubka used. The free takeoff IS the Petrov model. Or at least the most important part of it. What Lavellenie is doing after that is what is different. Bubka created power by swinging his trail leg. Lavillenie creates power by dropping his lead knee and thereby lowering his center of mass while he is swinging.


I agree that Bubka and Lavillenie are not much different where it counts.

I think what Lavillenie does after leaving the ground is to overcome his stature. He's 5'9" gripping around 5.15m. Bubka was 6' gripping 5.15m but honestly had a take off angle more like a 6'2" - 6'3" vaulter. With the lower take off angle and center of mass and very high grip, Lavillenie has to bend the pole much more than Bubka to shorten the chord enough to move the pole to vertical. His swing technique accomplished that.
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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:42 pm

I love all this analysis since RL broke he WR on Saturday! :yes:

Thanks to wan, canag, botakatobi, Tim, ADTF Academy, PV2020, dj, and David for their posts! All great stuff!

You may be on to something re comparing his midstep on his WR to his midstep on the 6.21 attempt. But digging even DEEPER to the root cause of WHY his midstep might have been off (which in turn caused him to miss the box), take a look at his facial expressions as he preps himself for each vault - as he stands at the end of the runway.

We have to be careful to not read more into this than what is truly there, but I see a different "attitude" on his face and in his breathing on his 6.21 attempt. He exhales in a tired, fatigued manner, and his eyes do NOT look like he has the confidence that he's going to clear the bar. This is a different focus than his WR 6.16 pre-run prep.

This attitude should not be surprising for someone that has just surpassed his own PB by 8cm; has just set the WR; and is now on his 7th competitive vault of the day.

Even just watching the normal speed vid of his 6.21, we know that his tip is above the box, because the pole makes a visible indentation in the front slope of the pit.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:57 pm

achtungpv wrote: With the lower take off angle and center of mass and very high grip, Lavillenie has to bend the pole much more than Bubka to shorten the chord enough to move the pole to vertical. His swing technique accomplished that.

If you assume that their speed on takeoff is identical, and their impulse on takeoff (at whatever angle) then yes.

But it's not as simple as just getting a bigger bend to rotate the pole more. There is such as thing as the optimal bend for a pole of a given length and stiffness. And I would guess that the properties of RL's new WR pole were distinctly different than SB's. But pole technology aside, a bigger bend does not equal a more efficient roll to vertical. The key is to balance the properties of the pole to the characteristics of the vaulter's style and grip.

I think you're aware of this, Achtungpv, but I just wanted to point it out to less technical readers. You have made a good point that with a lower center of mass and equal grip, the additional energy to clear 6.15 or 6.16 does have to come from SOMEWHERE.

And even if RL's impulse was at the same exact angle as SB's, just the difference in the resultant angle of the pole at takeoff is enough to cause RL's momentum to carry forwards more than SB's.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby KirkB » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:38 pm

KirkB wrote: Even just watching the normal speed vid of his 6.21, we know that his tip is above the box, because the pole makes a visible indentation in the front slope of the pit.

The BEND of the pole makes an indent, I mean.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby david bussabarger » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:35 pm

If you look at Bubka's body postioning at the moment of takeoff his top arm is typically only bent back 16 degrees from vertical and his takeoff leg is only bent back 22 degrees from vertical.This indicative of his emphasis on developing upward movement at takeoff. In addition this causes him to gain a great deal of upward height from the ground just after he is airbourne, which results in a high takeoff angle. All this impedes his ability to develop forward takeoff drive.
In contrast Lav. typically takes off directly under his top hand or slightly under. This is evidenced by the fact that the top of his pole is already well bent before before he leaves the ground. In addition, typically his top arm is bent back 35 degrees from vertical and his takeoff leg is bent back 30 degrees from vertical as he leaves the ground, which indicates the development of a forward/upward spring off action. This, inturn, creates a lower takeoff angle and much more forward takeoff drive vs Bubka.
A big problem on this site that I have pointed out before is that almost everbody is a hard core believer in the B/P model . So there is alot of rationalization and bias observation going on. Lav.s technique is radically different from Bubka's in a great many important ways.
His rate of acceleration on the runway is different, he has a wider hand spread, his applies more leverage with his front arm against the pole during the takeoff, he has very different takeoff mechanics, the duration of his swing is MUCH shorter, he has a pronounced tucking action during the r-b and he does not drop his head and shoulders back as he extends.

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Re: Lavillenie vs Bubka

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:41 pm

As I examine Lavellenie's progression through the past couple of years I see him moving toward a Free take off. In fact one of his more recent PR's clearly showed that he had taken off out with the pole bent the opposite direction, so I conclude with Wan this has been his intent. However, with that being said I do not see a free take off on this world record vault. If anything on this vault I believe he was either on or very slightly under. Although I believe him moving toward a Free take off is a good decision on his part, I do not think it was the greatest factor in why this vault was so successful. As you know, I have as of late, been placing a great focus on the ability of generating enormous energy at the top of the swing by extending the heels, hips and spine from a counter thrust position when the feet are extended over the head. I have been calling this a TAP at the Top of the swing. I did NOT coin the term TAP from this position but took it from a Gymnastic site verbatim when when I posted this sentence (Notice the bolded portion):

So you see the tap is merely a way of generating energy into the swing from a arched or hollow position of the body (coil) whether swinging forward or backward and has evolved as a way to quickly accelerate the speed and power of the swing especially into release moves and dismounts! :idea:


So although I did not coin the word Tap, I believe I was the first to call it "The Tap at the top of the swing" in the pole vault. Werner and Clymer Illustrated the importance of the Pole Vault Tap at the bottom of the swing and called it such, I realised that Vaulters like Gymnast have the opportunity to employ a second Tapping motion at the top of the swing when going into dismount from the bar or pole, so like in Gymnastics, I chose to keep the same term. I was laughed at by many on here only because I brought in a new term? I was taken back by this reaction, because it was not the term to me that was important, but the all important emphasis that needs to be made on the action! Laugh if you like I suppose ;)

What former World record holder Bubka and New World Record holder Lavellenie BOTH have in common is a great Tap at the top of their vault! However, they both achieve it in different ways. Bubka achieves it by a long single legged swing that when met with the drive leg is extended to the sky all the way to the point his swing leg makes contact close to the top arm elbow. He is able to invert more fully and faster then Lavellenie because of better swing mechanics to this position and therefore is ALSO able to make use of shoulder rotation in his tapping Motion. Lavellinie Breaks at the hips immediately with the aim of getting his Knees up over his head as quick as possible, in almost a balled position, were he is able to forcefully extend (Frog Like lol) BOTH legs upward with the full range of motion of BOTH legs into his tap. He does not get the benefit of shoulder rotation however, he does get the benefit of being able to extend BOTH legs in their full range of motion. The other very important thing that both vaulters make full use of is a top hand leaning pull of both arms as the feet pass the pole while breaking at the hips that seamlessly blend to a very strong bottom hand push toward the box as the feet are shot into the air followed by a very stong top arm push as they leave the pole. Of course both of them did this with impeccable timing of the uncoiling of the pole in both vaults. Lavellenie has certainly made it clear that there is more then one way to skin the cat of the pole vault Tap at the top! Certainly has opened my eyes. But the question remains what method of the top tap is superior to the other? It could be argued that Lavellenies method is superior to Bubka"s because of the fact he is the shorter (Less plant angle) and/or possibly slower? But perhaps Lavellenie is just more explosive at the second phase? I believe this is the case. It is entirely possible if Lavellenie could jump higher if he was a pure Petrovian? Or perhaps not and the tuck and shoot suits him better? What is clear is that he has found a way to generate enormous power out of his Tap at the top! I believe that as many begin to realize and focus on this Tapping power potential at the top the bar will be moved up and 6.14 or better will be common in the near future! Let's just wait and see? :)
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