Timing of the PULL

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby IAmTheWalrus » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:28 pm

In an ideal vault, the pull should begin as soon as the takeoff toe leaves the ground, meaning "conscious effort" should begin slightly before that.
-Nick

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Apr 07, 2014 4:23 pm

Walrus, would you mind backing your position with the rational behind it?
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:20 pm

Nick, PV student and Altius, can you describe how pulling at plant helps one go elastic into penetration? Also please describe how pulling after penetration can be achieved if the bottom arm is to be continuously straightened to ensure the rapid rise of the hips upward as Bubka demonstrates and Petrov promotes in his method ? LOL How do you straighten the arm (which is pushing) and pull at the same time? Or perhaps you Pvstudent, Altius have converted to Agapits M640! Have at it fellas! Wheres all your great vaulters that have trained under this new work of genius? These are obvious solid questions to what I know are preposterous theories on your part. But do try your best!
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby altius » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:06 am

PVDaddy wrote:Walrus, would you mind backing your position with the rational behind it?


I think the word you were looking for is RATIONALE!!

But I would merely say that when someone doesn't know enough to know how little they really know, it is difficult to have any kind of conversation with them.

Incidentally old son you never got round to explaining why the initial pole carry impacts the take off. Now this really is important because the vaulter can consciously control every aspect of that element of technique until they leave the ground . As I have tried to explain to you on several occasions the vaulter has no time to think about anything after take off - it must be non conscious - in my language intuitive. It is easier for them to learn to do correct thing than it is for the coach to teach it or even explain it.

You can continue to try to explain everything about the pole vault using convoluted logic and language if it satisfies your ego but you would be better off using that time to learn something about the vault by actually coaching it. Try it, you might like it - you might even get the recognition you so desperately are searching for if you actually produced some successful athletes - that is what all serious coaches respect.

Then while you will might get much, any, respect by continuing to rabbit on here about esoteric aspects of technique, you certainly will not get any if you continue to criticise - no, abuse - folk who have already earned the respect of the pole vault community, world wide, through their work. Most of these individuals are too busy coaching to waste time reading your ramblings but it might be possible to mobilise a few of them to encourage you to go away.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:14 am

Of course you did not have the ability to answer my above questions now did you Pvstudent, Altius ? All you could ever do is slander me and not challenge me with an intellectual rebuttal. So funny that a pole vaulting nobody has you both looking ridiculous!

I could care less about your threats either Altius. Mobilize all you want. The promotion by you experts of intentionally pulling prior to breaking at the hips has been DEBUNKED 7 reasons to Sunday! That's what I care about. My mission is complete either way! :)
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVstudent » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:49 am

PVDaddy wrote:PVSTUDENT, UNDER THE IDEAL CONDITIONS OF A PERFECT RUN UP, PLANT, FREE TAKE OFF, PENETRATION AND SWING WHEN WOULD BE THE IDEAL TIME FOR A VAULTER TO UTILIZE A PULLING ACTION AGAINST THE POLE TO ELEVATE THE HIPS INTO INVERSION? Also,just to eliminate any other variable you will try to hide behind, let's assume a grip height of 15 ft. or more. Oh and do please provide your rational!


Enough said!

Re the above statement. This is the reason I am not going to play games and reply! I re-interate I'm not interested because your statement as quoted shows any response will be a waste of my effort and time.
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby altius » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:49 am

PVDaddy, you are simply delusional old son - and getting worse by the day. I suggest you go and seek some help!
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby dj » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:02 am

It's simple....

The swing starts as the plant/takeoff ends...

Data... The best vaults in the world ONLY take .50 or less of a second to reach a "flat back" position in the swing after takeoff.. The best vaults have a time of 1.47 or less for the full vault from takeoff to max COM above the bar...

To be halfway through a vault immediately after takeoff means that the plant-swing is seamless... Mean one fluid move...

Run-plant-swing

Dj

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:14 am

Dj:
It's simple....

The swing starts as the plant/takeoff ends...


Derrrrr! But that's not the question is it DJ? Read the Title of the thread. Read my repeated question.

PVSTUDENT, UNDER THE IDEAL CONDITIONS OF A PERFECT RUN UP, PLANT, FREE TAKE OFF, PENETRATION AND SWING WHEN WOULD BE THE IDEAL TIME FOR A VAULTER TO UTILIZE A PULLING ACTION AGAINST THE POLE TO ELEVATE THE HIPS INTO INVERSION? Also,just to eliminate any other variable you will try to hide behind, let's assume a grip height of 15 ft. or more. Oh and do please provide your rational!

Perhaps I need to define what I mean by pulling? Pulling-Bringing the hand(S) TOWARD the body. Such as during a Pull up. However, the type of pulling that Bubka performs does not have nearly the amount of range of motion as a pull up and is mostly performed through the shortening of the shoulder and bicep muscles in order to assist raising the hips and legs.
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:31 am

PVstudent: Enough said!

Re the above statement. This is the reason I am not going to play games and reply! I re-interate I'm not interested because your statement as quoted shows any response will be a waste of my effort and time.


I understand PVstudent, Your not responding, because I have defeated your poor logic and have done it in a very decisive manner! You are left speachless and defeated! It is you who was crapping in the pole vault nest from the beginning.

This is a VERY important topic! A topic of which great confusion has been created by Agapit and Altius. In fact the longest thread ever here on PVP. Many of you experts even swallowed this myth up like Fish, hook line and Sinker! The sad thing is in the process you have hurt many minnows just trying to learn to swim. NOT ANYMORE! THE WICKED EARLY PULL WITCH IS DEAD! THE JIG OR THE GIG PROMOTED FROM RUSSIA AND AUSTRALIA IS OVER FOR GOOD! LOL DEAL WITH IT! :)
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby KirkB » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:43 pm

PVDaddy wrote: I understand PVstudent, Your not responding, because I have defeated your poor logic and have done it in a very decisive manner! You are left speachless and defeated! It is you who was crapping in the pole vault nest from the beginning.

... Many of you experts even swallowed this myth up like Fish, hook line and Sinker! The sad thing is in the process you have hurt many minnows just trying to learn to swim. NOT ANYMORE! THE WICKED EARLY PULL WITCH IS DEAD! THE JIG OR THE GIG PROMOTED FROM RUSSIA AND AUSTRALIA IS OVER FOR GOOD! LOL DEAL WITH IT! :)

None of this crap from PVDaddy is constructive.

Becca, can you please delete all this ??? !!!

And while you're at it, can you please ban PVDaddy from posting in the Advanced Technique forum? He doesn't have the credentials to post here!

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Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. There is no tuck! THERE IS NO DELAY!

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:31 am

Kirk, If you remember correctly your first post on this thread was so rude and non constructive that Becca removed it?
This was PVstudents opening line and he was the first post to my original post and you say I am not constructive?

PVstudent: To PVdaddy,

Your posts on the timing of the "lower Arm pull" are unfortunately so confused and misguided as to be yet more incomprehensible twaddle!


Yet I have provided 7 reason to back my rationale with Logic and science and you experts have been unable to dispute any of them or even provide your input as to when or if a pull should occur and why? All any of you have done is slander me. That's all you have.

Is there any wonder why I might be a bit abrasive in response?

Furthermore, who the heck do you think you are that you can determine who has the knowledge or expertise to post here and who does not?!!!!!!

For the past 7 years there's hardly been a day that I have not studied pole vault technique for several hours. I have also coached athletics for over 30 years. I am currently a High School Pole Vault coach and a College Pole Vault coach. Are you? As far a education goes I do have a Bachelor's degree in Health and Science (with Honors). So What? I believe you probably have a degree in Computer Science and currently work in that field (I pay attention even to small detail). So exactly what are your requirements (As if you have say) to post here?

I understand you were a decent vaulter in your day and I respect that, but, you are not even close to the caliber of Elite vaulters today. They jump almost 3 Ft. Higher then you did?

Also, the techniques you fail to promote, and criticize those that do, show just how far behind the curve you are! They have zero chance of promoting anything close to world record status. For example you have made it clear that you do not believe in the following: 1) The extension of the bottom arm, after penetration, accelerates the swing. You think its a pull. 2) That a pull should occur through both shoulders after the break in hips. 3) That a strong bottom hand push toward the pit accelerates inversion. 3) That a strong top hand push accelerates fly-away. Originally you made fun of me when I promoted: 5) A tap at the bottom of the swing and 6) A tap at the top of the swing and 7) An Inversion beyond vertical. After I provide evidence that others with more CREDENTIALS them myself promoted 5.6 and 7 suddenly you are a believer and new it all along! Let me tell you "Advanced Technique Expert" you are missing many, many opportunities to add energy to the vault. Opportunities missed that will never have results even close to the world record with even the finest of athletes. Here is your Avatar: Run. Plant. Jump. Stretch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear. Look at all the missing links? Yet you tell me I am not worthy to post here?
I am questioning whether it is you who belongs in this advanced section?

Here is Petrov talking about the importance of going elastic until they can go no more. Note PVstudent: The shoulder muscles cannot go elastic or stretch if they are occupied with Pulling (Shortening) after the toe leaves the ground. Kirk: He is also describing how in this phase the unbending of the bottom arm accelerates the swing.

It is worth mentioning here that the arrest of the shoulders after the deep penetration
ensures the drive of the hips upwards to the pole, through active unbending of the left
arm


Here is Petrov discussing the abillity of the vaulter to achieve the maximum vertical speed possible of the entire pole support after unbending out of the coil at the top of the swing that I have called a tap at the top of the swing:

When the vaulter is unbending, the pole also has the highest speed of uncoiling
upwards, therefore, the combination of the pole's carrying capacity and the athlete's
unbending movement generates an accelerated thrust upwards, and by the end of the
unbending movement the centroidal axis reaches the maximum vertical speed
(Bubka's speed reached up to 6 m/s).


Here is Petrov discussing the use of the arms (bottom arm included) were I believe in a strong downward push to the pit to assist in the upward thrust of the vaulters body:

An active turn over onto the shoulders should
end when arms come in use in order to stretch the body along the pole. By this
movement the vaulter maintains the speed of the body's thrust upwards One of the
vaulter's tasks during the pull up is keeping the body close to the pole.


Here is Petrov discussing the importance of the top hand push:

In transit to the push the vaulter – apart from the turn left to the pole – uses the
rotation of the pole in the bearing point. With their high upward speed, many great
vaulters, after their right hand releases the pole, are still in the vertical position


None of these things are included in your avatar Kirk? :(

I also Know that you have questioned Altius in Bubkas abillity to accelerate before take off.
Here is what Petrov has to say:

Continued acceleration of the last 4 strides is an indication of good skills acquired in
this part of the pole vault (pole drop/plant). The speed of Sergei Bubka shown in his
best vaults continued to grow until the take-off, as follows:
4 strides before take-off: 9.5 m/sec
2 strides before take-off: 9.7 m/secbefore take-off: 9.9 m/sec
before take-off: 9.9 m/sec
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