Timing of the PULL

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PVDaddy
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:53 am

Pvstudent, all hot air as usual and zero substance !
Seriously you brought zero! Must be a bummer knowing you do not have the capacity to dispute my thesis. You are not even capable of disputing one of my 7 supporting reasons for my thesis. So that means you must agree or that you truly don't belong in the advanced section. Seriously wind bag bring something to the table if you can? We're all waiting........?
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby Decamouse » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:42 pm

Seriously -- this sounds like who had the biggest pole conversation -- ok I will give this a shot - part time helper with HS kids -- try and teach them to be safe and enjoy
I have never gotten to the point of every telling a kid or a master vaulter to pull -- usually have way to many things before that point that need fixing

So when would you -- my thought - get run right and take-off close to correct most of the time (Wisc has a two month season)

Keeping it simply -- if you take off way under everything else after that is correcting what you already mucked up

Swing tall top hand - arm straight - you rotate with hinge points at top hand, shoulder, hips (let the really good coaches handle the finer points of each of those)

Your hips better be well above you bottom hand (which at this point is lower than you top hand for most people)

Perfect world - perfectly aligned with pole head down feet up (real world for most of us - 1/2 to 3/4 of the way - pull if we remember and flag off the pole)

A tucker would be more like a question mark than an "I" -

My feeling is a really good vaulter if he/she has the first part correct is adding a little because he gets in a positions were pulling if he can will help -

If you want to rip this apart - really -- who in the big picture cares - lets land in the soft stuff every time first and go from there - next weekend I will watch an M85 get in the pit as his 6th event in a Hept -- Yes this is the advanced section -- if some of these post are advanced! I am sure the youngsters reading the board get a real good impression
Plant like crap sometimes ok most times

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby grandevaulter » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:51 pm

Decamouse wrote: next weekend I will watch an M85 get in the pit as his 6th event in a Hept --
Sent you an email with my entry form. I plan on being there to see the 85 year old.

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Mar 16, 2014 11:58 am

PVstudent, Based on your post here under this thread, it readily apparent that you are not educated enough about pole vaulting or even have enough practical common sense to be posting about this subject the timing of the pull. PVSTUDENT,YOU LACK THE INTELLIGENCE,KNOWLEDGE OR SKILL TO DEBATE ME ON THIS OR ANY POINT HERE ON PVP!

It is crystal clear to anyone reading your rude, name calling post, that they lack any form of intelligence or scientific basis. I mean ZERO. IS THAT ALL YOU GOT????? :D


Who's the Cuckoo really soiling the nest of pole vault truth on this subject here?


I CHALLENGE you once again! I understand you are incapable of debating me on this. It is apparent to all!

NOW IT IS YOUR TURN PVSTUDENT TO SHOW US ALL HOW SMART YOU ARE. You went out of your way in your jealousy and hate toward me as you always do with useless words

PUT YOUR MONEY WERE YOUR MOUTH IS NOW! WERE ALL WAITING !
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVstudent » Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:50 am

PVdaddy,

There are four key facts that you fail to consider that invalidate your entire posting on the matter:

1. Once the toes of the vaulter’s take-off foot have broken ground contact the only biomechanical action the vaulter can perform is the exertion of muscle torques resulting in pull forces exerted on the pole. Note to exert a torque a muscle physiologically is only able to exert pull forces since all a muscle can do, upon receipt of neural stimulation, is attempt to shorten due to the formation of cross bridges between the actin and myocin filaments of the muscle and the operation of the “all or none law”. Muscles cannot push anything they can only pull!
Once the vaulter is only in contact with the earth via the tip of the pole located in the planting box the muscular pull forces/torques exerted by the vaulter will have equal and oppositely directed forces/torques exerted by the pole on the vaulter (Newton’s Law). This simply states that if the vaulter pulls against the pole the pole will pull against the vaulter with equal magnitude and opposing direction.

2. Once the vaulter’s takeoff foot has broken contact with the ground there is linear translation of the vaulter upwards and forwards towards the plane of the cross bar whilst at the same time there is rotation of the vaulter’s centre of mass about both the left and right wrists as well as the vaulter’s shoulder joints.
In other words the vaulter is swinging on the pole ie undergoing pendular (rotary) motion about the grip locations on the pole! For this to occur the vaulter must be pulling on the pole and the pole pulling on the vaulter!

3. For pendular motion to occur there MUST BE a centripetally directed inward pull on the vaulter acting towards the axes provided primarily at the wrists.
Newtonian physics applies in that so long as some of the vaulter’s weight force is acting on the pole, and the vaulter is showing pendular swing on the pole, a centripetal force is being exerted. If a centripetal force is acting on the vaulter the vaulter must rotate about the pivot axes (wrists) and therefore must be pulling against the pole for it to be pulling against him/her.

4. Since the total system (vaulter plus pole) is also rotating about the pole tip axis at the same time, points (1-3) also apply. Hence both the lower arm and the top arm of the vaulter will also be exerting pulling forces and creating torques about the vaulter’s body segments and on the pole tip pivot point in the planting box.

Your post does not demonstrate that you understand:

(1) the significance of the continuously changing direction of the tangential velocities of the vaulter’s swing leg foot to the pelvic abdominal core inversion roll action nor
(2) the resultant tangential velocity of the vaulter’s centre of mass with
(3) correct identification of the critical postural configuration and point in time at which the lower arm comes into play to continue to drive the vaulter’s translatory motion whilst simultaneously accelerating the inversion rotation about the hands and shoulders.

The action of the lower arm comes into play long before you say it does!

I add that there are two very important additional roles of the action of the timing of the lower arm flexion (pull) occurring before maximum pole bend that you simply don’t know or recognize. In the post maximum pole bend you also failed to identify correctly the action and role of the lower arm in the maintenance of continuity of motion through the inversion and the spiral turn of the second phase of pole support.

You have some issues PVdaddy with respect to how to use this site appropriately!

I do hope that you become so busy coaching that you will, in the real world of vaulting, receive the rewards and feedback that the success of your vaulter’s may give you.

Again, I reiterate to you the importance of being accurate, less aggressive, and above all being sure of your facts before advancing PVdaddy’s models of anything to do with pole vaulting science or the coaching practitioner’s art till you can communicate your ideas clearly.

When you have gained such knowledge, based on genuine experience and involvement with elite pole vaulters, then you may become able to make a very positive contribution to the Advanced Section of PVP.

I am clearly totally unconvinced, by your posts, that you have reached this stage in the development of your knowledge and experience of elite pole vault techniques.

When I see some evidence that you have produced some proficient pole vaulters (posting of videos and questions in other sections on this site would be a good way to do this) and your posts reflect the true state of what really counts, namely successful coaching, I will be interested in what you have to say. When this occurs I will be prepared to engage in sensible debate with you.

At the moment you appear, to me, to be incapable of useful constructive dialogue on any coaching topic related to pole vault.

I will not enter into any further discussion with you on this your thread as it is currently a waste of time and this reader’s patience.
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVstudent » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:13 am

AVC Coach I hope you received my reply to your message.
Thank you.
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby altius » Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:27 pm

PVDaddy - I suggest you heed my - always - humble opinion when I say that PVStudent is probably the most knowledgeable individual on the planet in the area of the biomechanics of the pole vault. He was also involved with coaching world class male and female vaulters.

But charge on into the abyss if you feel driven to do so. ;)
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:18 am

Pvstudent, There are many key factors that you fail to consider and your obvious strategy of attempting to redefine and confuse a commonly used term by others and myself of "Pull" is entirely misleading and completely invalidates your argument.

Pv student wrote:
1. Once the toes of the vaulter’s take-off foot have broken ground contact the only bio mechanical action the vaulter can perform is the exertion of muscle torques resulting in pull forces exerted on the pole.


Wrong and very poor coaching at this stage on your part!
Just as you can tense a muscle, you also have the ability to RELAX a muscle. :idea:

As a supposed "bio-mechanical expert" you have failed to identify a VERY important principle of muscle physics called Stretch Reflex. Stretch reflex simply states that a pre-stretched muscle has a re markedly improved ability to contract at faster rate. A phrase that many "knowledgeable" coaches use at this stage of the Vault is called"Going Elastic". By failing to identify and promote this very important action at this stage of the vault you have already predisposed your vaulter to a slow swing! :(

Pv student:
Note to exert a torque a muscle physiologically is only able to exert pull forces since all a muscle can do, upon receipt of neural stimulation,


Note to relax a muscle group (In this case all the muscles that surround the shoulder joint) as vaulter should in order to "go elastic"they only need to make a concious effort to not send neural stimulation to them (relax them).

Pvstudent:
is attempt to shorten due to the formation of cross bridges between the actin and myocin filaments of the muscle and the operation of the “all or none law”. Muscles cannot push anything they can only pull!
Ya so what ? Muscles shorten when you "pull" and they shorten when you "push" and any idiot knows the difference between those commonly used terms here on PVP.

PV student:
2. Once the vaulter’s takeoff foot has broken contact with the ground there is linear translation of the vaulter upwards and forwards towards the plane of the cross bar whilst at the same time there is rotation of the vaulter’s centre of mass about both the left and right wrists as well as the vaulter’s shoulder joints.
In other words the vaulter is swinging on the pole ie undergoing pendular (rotary) motion about the grip locations on the pole! For this to occur the vaulter must be pulling on the pole and the pole pulling on the vaulter!

3. For pendular motion to occur there MUST BE a centripetally directed inward pull on the vaulter acting towards the axes provided primarily at the wrists.
Newtonian physics applies in that so long as some of the vaulter’s weight force is acting on the pole, and the vaulter is showing pendular swing on the pole, a centripetal force is being exerted. If a centripetal force is acting on the vaulter the vaulter must rotate about the pivot axes (wrists) and therefore must be pulling against the pole for it to be pulling against him/her.

4. Since the total system (vaulter plus pole) is also rotating about the pole tip axis at the same time, points (1-3) also apply. Hence both the lower arm and the top arm of the vaulter will also be exerting pulling forces and creating torques about the vaulter’s body segments and on the pole tip pivot point in the planting box.


Ya so what? A centripetally directed force has nothing to do with the the conscious action of pulling through both shoulders that I am referring to.

Your post clearly demonstrate that you do not understand;
1. The importance of going elastic to achieve stretch reflex
2. The importance of re-extending (pushing) the plant while going elastic and why?
3. Pulling through Both shoulders (Not just the bottom as you stated). In fact you still have not identified the when? Just as I have told the reader you would not!
4. How the timing of the pull should coincide with proper pole rotation position and hand placement.
5. The interconnection of all of these actions and how and why they are all symbiotic to each other.

All 5 of these points are hugely critical and you have failed to address every one of them. This just proves that you are way in over your head and do not have the ability to debate me on this topic or even address the original challenge I poised to you, which was to simply define the correct timing of the conscious action of the pull and back it with rational.
I have with 7 reasons. Your turn......................


So you have still failed to address the challenge I poised to you of clarifying the timing
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby altius » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:59 am

Go away PVDaddy - you are taking up valuable space on this planet.
Its what you learn after you know it all that counts. John Wooden

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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:36 am

Altius, why do you want to promote an early pull at plant. The great old timers did not do this like you said either. They pulled as their hip started to get even with their shoulders.
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:36 pm

Anyway still waiting for PVstudent to tell us when the conscious action of pulling on the pole to elevate the hips should begin? He must also provide his rational for it like I have with my 7 points. I doubt you have the courage to address this challenge PV student! :D
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Re: Timing of the PULL

Unread postby PVDaddy » Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:54 pm

Oh by the way I can easily predict that PVstudent will say its Only an"unconscious action". So just to save us from your alibi, let me rephrase this challenge to you PVstudent.

PVSTUDENT, UNDER THE IDEAL CONDITIONS OF A PERFECT RUN UP, PLANT, FREE TAKE OFF, PENETRATION AND SWING WHEN WOULD BE THE IDEAL TIME FOR A VAULTER TO UTILIZE A PULLING ACTION AGAINST THE POLE TO ELEVATE THE HIPS INTO INVERSION? Also,just to eliminate any other variable you will try to hide behind, let's assume a grip height of 15 ft. or more. Oh and do please provide your rational! :)

I have already said you lack the courage to address this very very clear question. :)
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