Shoulder Drop Technique

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PVDaddy
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:03 pm

My college vaulter who was struggling with this very issue tried this technique and raised his PR 15 Inches today at the meet.
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby KirkB » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:13 pm

Nice PR :yes: but ...

How many of those inches do you attribute to "this technique", and how many inches to all other factors?

Let's be honest.

Kirk

p.s. Please post vids.
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:51 pm

Yup stuck in the Mud for 20 years now. Time to move forward with a better set of instructions.

The vaulter must ALWAYS strive to swing up as physically far as possible. The top arm is a guaranteed safe stop and as long as you don't let go, the body will bounce off of it in the direction of the pit and along with the added momentum of the pole uncoiling in the direction of the pit, deep penetration is predetermined. This makes it impossible to invert to far! The process of looking at the bottom hand insures the laying back of the shoulders and correct head position and provides the vaulter a visual reference point with the vertical pole from which to maintain alignment with it into fly-away. Also the process of the top hand push not only provides the last opportunity to add vertical energy to the vault, but, also insures the correct body position while going over the bar. Notice this all demonstrated in this fantastic vault. There is a reason Bubka performs a top hand push on a pole that isn't there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-UwBaf8f98
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby PVDaddy » Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:56 pm

Your correct Kirk there were also other factors that were encouraged, however I do believe getting him to look at his bottom hand was a contributing one. Thank-You for trusting me about the new PR tonight!
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby KirkB » Sat Feb 01, 2014 1:46 am

PVDaddy wrote:... there were also other factors that were encouraged, however I do believe getting him to look at his bottom hand was a contributing one.

You didn't answer my question with a quantified answer, so I'll do it for you. I know it's hard to quantify, but I'd say (even before I see the vids) that it's about 1 inch for the eye focus technique (even tho I disagree with that technique), and 14 inches for other factors, such as (a) been training all winter and this was his first "break-thru" meet; (b) general maturity improvements since last summer; (c) weight lifting over the past 6 months (?); (d) other IMPORTANT factors that you neglected to mention; (e) etc; (f) etc; (g) etc. You can fill in the etceteras.

PVDaddy wrote:Thank-You for trusting me about the new PR tonight!

Trusting you? :confused: I asked for vids! :D

But all in all, kudos to you if his 15 inch PR is even just partially due to your coaching! That's great news, Daddy, and congratulations on coaching him to that new PR! Sincerely! :yes:

Kirk
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby PVDaddy » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:00 am

What I'm trying to say is that the more I study the vault and watch almost ANY of the better vaulters at their best performances (Their best Jumps in a given meet), what I am noticing as a common factor is a great rotation of the shoulder joint at the top. Although we are not close to achieving that, I believe that if the vaulter is able to view their bottom hand, they have to at least drop the shoulders in order to do so.

The vaulters that are able to come out of the reverse-C at the top of the vault (aka being in the chair position--although, for Bubka in his first 6m vault, this chair is much more "inverted" than most vaulters'), utilize the power of erecting their entire spines. This is accomplished through flexing the cervical, thoracic and lumbar erector muscles, as well as an emphasized thrust of the pelvis by contracting the Gluteus groups. The position of his legs, nearly extending past his head, serves as a means of counter-balancing this thrust. At the same time, the rotator cuff muscles are working to align the long axis of the entire arm with the spine, as well. This involves effort from all 4 muscles in each rotator cuff, and forceful contraction of the Triceps brachii, and Lattissimus Dorsi. Simultaneously, Bubka extends his legs upward by forcefully extending his heels towards the sky. This is what I refer to as a TAP at the top of the vault preceeding pull/push and flyaway. Now Bubka is upside down--this should be the ultimate form for a vaulter to have as he/she begins the pull and push off at the very end of the vault.
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby vquestpvc » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:04 pm

PVDaddy,

Thank you for including the photo of Bubka in the inverted position for review of the eye position on the hand. However, perhaps we need to clarify something first from that photo. From that photo which hand are you considering the bottom hand. Because from that photo it seems to me that Bubka is actually looking at his right hand (top hand at takeoff) rather than his left hand. But, in the inverted position, he appears to be looking at the bottom hand; still right hand or top hand. Interestingly, in the great photo of Bubka on the cover of B2B he actually seems to be looking at the top hand next to his thigh; or my eyes might be getting old. The point is the focal point of the top hand is not only beneficial when attempting to cover the pole, but this focal point can be a benefit (a physical cue) as the vaulter pulls and thrusts and finally pushes off the top. This would be why i suggest the top hand is a better focal point. I teach visual cues just like many included in teaching gymnastics. Just like in gymnastics, that visual cue indicates what come next. If a gymnast is attempting a kip on the rings (much like a "Bubka" on a pole), he must see that his legs are in a position to maximize the leg thrust so as to put him in position with hands over the rings. Further in vaulting, however, the vaulter wants to pull the left hand through the left shoulder and right hand through the right shoulder and then extending off the top. Throughout a vault, the right hand is the most consistent point on the pole and having the focal point on the top hand can help insure or perfect this progression. Just one perspective of many out there.

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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:38 am

Vquestpc, The hands do not change position in the vault. The bottom hand is the bottom hand while planting or inverting. Furthermore Bubka is looking at his left hand which is always his bottom hand as he is a right handed vaulter. His top hand is at the top of the pole. His bottom hand is below it.
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:23 am

Vquestpc, While we are on the subject of visual cues. During rock back and as your swing foot is coming to the top of the pole, the top hand should be your visual cue and the vaulter should not have to move their head or line of site to view it. The top hand should be directly above the brow line provided you have maintained top hand pressure throughout the vault and throughout rock back and did not prematurely pull during the downswing. You will find that vaulters who prematurely pull during the downswing will NOT have their hand directly above the brow line because they have incorrectly rotated their arm line down and failed to keep it with the chord.
When you invert after rock back you want to drop the shoulders and head down below the shoulder so the body is in a straight line. Using the top hand as a visual cue from this position would require the vaulter to have the shoulders and head up in order to view it. :idea: Looking at the top hand from this position does no allow for a proper inversion and in fact promotes flagging out toward the pole. Most vaulters make the same mistake of keeping the head and shoulders up and look at the crossbar thinking they need to watch their hips go over it which makes flagging out even worse!
So the proper visual cue is top hand during rock back and bottom hand and pole during inversion and push of the bottom hand toward the pit.
During final top hand push off the top of the pole as your hips go over the crossbar looking at the top hand and directly down the pole to the pit would be the final visual cue to reference your fly-away position from.
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby vquestpvc » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:55 pm

It seems there might be some miscommunication here PVDaddy. Of course the top is always the top hand through out the vault. I was guessing that with the photo you provided of Bubka inverted that you were viewing what was the bottom hand in the photo; right hand or for Bubka, the top hand. However, having written that, in both the photo you provided and the photo of Bubka on the cover of B2B, it seems to me it is the top hand he is focused on. Further, I believe focusing on the top hand puts the body in a more stable position. Meaning that if a vaulter puts the head back too far it may effect ones equilibrium and stability on the pole. But since the body follows the head, looking at the bottom hand does not allow one to rotate to a more effective cover position prior to thrusting.

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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:44 pm

vquestpvc. Look at this photo again. Bubka is inverted on the pole, just prior to fly-away. He has his upper back and head down and is LOOKING at his LEFT hand, which is his BOTTOM hand!?????? viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28056&start=12#p172417
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Re: Shoulder Drop Technique

Unread postby PVDaddy » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:53 pm

Sorry poor link. Here you go. viewtopic.php?f=38&t=28056&start=12#p172417
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